www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall What Were Byzantine Catholic Bishops Thinking!?.

From Rorate Caeli. March 27, 2010. No wonder they don't take part in Ecumenical Services with the Orthodox. They prefer this style of worship.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/

Watch the ending of the ceremony. A great applause after a so called "valid" Roman Mass.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RECongress#p/a/u/1/dO1iLNdQHaY

I only have a few comments. First, I don't think that putting parentheses around the word valid was necessary as we enter Holy Week. Second, it was impressive that there were 40,000 in attendance. And yes, I do wonder what the Eastern bishops were thinking, as the very question was posed by the poster at rorate-caeli. Being of the Eastern tradition and mindset, I personally found it odd, but that is coming from me as an Orthodox Christian. The production struck me as an attempt to counter the impact so-called Protestant 'mega-churches' have these days.(Given Pope Benedict's academic history with respect to Liturgics, I wonder what he would think?) I am curious if any Eastern Catholic faithful were there and what their impression of the event was.

Quote: "Second, it was impressive that there were 40,000 in attendance."

They should have had it at Stonehenge.

I truly feel sorry for Pope Benedict XVI. He has this on top of the sex scandals in Europe to deal with.

I don't think, as we enter Holy Week, that it is the time to speculate as to what people's thoughts or feelings are/were regarding the Liturgy.

Although it may not be of our preference, it was indeed a valid mass, because it was celebrated by a valid minister of the sacrament, Bishop Gabino Zavala.

I saw 40,000 people who love God coming together to celebrate at the Table of the Lord.

Is the music what I prefer in church? Obviously not, or I wouldn't be Melkite. But it was joyful and rooted in praise. If I had been there, I would probably have joined in the rhythmic clapping of the entrance hymn, and I was glad to see the presiding bishop do so (rather than rigidly refraining and separating himself from his flock): As we in the Christian East know, worship involves our whole bodies, and music can be an integral part of that. I thought the bringing in of the incense was reverent and graceful. Remember that liturgical dance is part of an ancient tradition: Both Miriam and David danced before the Lord.

As for the clapping before the exit hymn, it seems that the presiding bishop was introducing all the key participants and thanking them for their hard work. I believe that in the context of culminating a conference of this type and in this setting, it was a pastorally appropriate action.

If I have offended anyone because of my musings on this topic, I ask your forgiveness as it was not my intent. As I have oft stated on this and other boards, I harbor no ill will towards my Catholic brothers and sisters, be they or the West or of the East, and I fully respect the divergence in ritual, rubrics and practice as we worship. That being said, I still have to say that while the presence of so many thousands rejoicing in the Lord was a wondrous thing, for my taste, the whole ambiance reminded me of a large scale Protestant gathering. On the other hand, having attended a large scale Orthodox Liturgy at Madison Square Garden some years ago, I remember leaving and telling my family that the organizers should have hired a Master of Ceremonies from the Roman Archdiocese of New York to make order and keep things moving along! I wish all of you a Blessed Holy Week and a most Joyous Pascha!

Hi all,

A brief introduction, since it's my first post, before I comment on this thread.

I've been reading the forum for about a year or so now, but I just registered this past fall when I started in the St Stephen's program. I'm a cradle RC (pre-Vatican II), but left the Church when I was about 11, that was 1963 or so. I pursued a number of non-Christian spiritual traditions for almost 40 years. When I was living in Bulgaria (1996-2005), I returned to the Catholic Church, but in its Byzantine expression. Shortly after coming back to the US and becoming a member of a Ruthenian Catholic parish here, I canonically transferred to the Byzantine Ruthenian Church.

I wanted to share a little background with you about Bishop Gerald's presence at that conference. I cannot speak for Bishop, of course, but I can give you some context for what was going on. Last year, Bishop decided the eparchy would have a vendor booth at the conference, to disseminate information on the Eastern Catholic Churches to the conference attendees. Bishop Gerald, one of our Basilian sisters, the pastor of my local parish, and myself went. We had a booth with many books on Eastern Christianity, plus icons, prayer ropes, etc. We also had lots of free literature about the history and spirituality of the Eastern Catholic Churches. Over the course of the 3 days, we had the opportunity to talk to hundreds of people who stopped by our booth. Some of these conversations were of real depth. Also, Fr Pipta from our church in San Diego gave a talk on Eastern Catholicism at one of the sessions on the conference schedule.

At the end of the conference, I did (hesitantly) attend the concluding Mass. It was pretty much the same as what they seem to have done this year. I have very little post VII RC experience, and so I was stunned and even horrified by what I saw. I cried for a bit as I sat there. And, yes, in some ways, it seemed very much like a Protestant mega-church service. To some of us, it felt more like a performance than a worship service. However, at the moment of the consecration, I understood that Our Lord was present, just as He is in the Byzantine liturgy I so love. For me, the form of that Mass was tragic and caused me great sorrow, but I believe that it is still a Mass.

For this year's conference, Bishop decided we would again have a booth, and the eparchy was also able to arrange to have a Byzantine liturgy on the conference schedule. Bishop Gerald concelebrated the liturgy with several priests of the eparchy. We had deacons, servers, choir, etc. We didn't know how many people would show up, but 1200 conference attendees came to our liturgy in a transformed hotel ballroom! Fr Rankin, the pastor of St Melany's here in Tucson, gave a talk to the attendees just prior to the start of the liturgy, explaining what they were about to see, and giving them some background and context for it.

I wasn't able to go this year, but when I inventoried the books that came back (our entire little bookstore had gone on the road to the conference), I discovered that we had sold almost every copy of every title we had that related to the Byzantine liturgy. I'm sure this was a direct result of people having attended our liturgy, as last year, not a single title on Byzantine liturgy sold.

I know that last year many of the people who came by our booth expressed how glad they were that there was an Eastern Catholic presence at the conference. And many catechists who came by took materials to share with their students.

While I don't always agree with all the decisions and policies of the Byzantine Ruthenian Church in the US, I do think there was a good purpose served both years in our being at this conference. We were like a little oasis, and there were people who came to drink of our water.

Hope you're all having a blessed and fruitful Great Fast,

Jaya

Liturgical dance, even tho biblical, isn't part of received tradition in the Catholic Church except in Alaska, Australia, and Africa. And outside those areas, it's forbidden.

And in Alaska, it's restricted to DURING the opening and closing hymns, and only if they are Native hymns and native dance... and it has to be a dance of a biblical story, and not an everyday kind of thing.

Not to mention that on top of all the other objections to this sad display, clapping during the Liturgy is directly opposed to the Roman Rite's sense of sobriety. It has been discouraged innumerable times from bishops and from the Vatican, and from Pope Benedict himself, who had some fairly harsh words to say, if I recall, about clapping during the Liturgy.

Alexis

Thank you for the explanation about your Bishop's participation at the conference and the closing Mass. That certainly sheds some light on what occurred. Since the same article was posted by the same poster on an Orthodox board this morning, would you consider allowing your response to be posted there so as to allow those who only follow that board to better understand Bishop Gerard's participation? He is a native of my city and like many families, his was torn between the Byzantine Catholic parish and my ACROD parish so we feel some degree of spiritual connection with him.

Yes, that would be fine for my response to be posted on the other forum.

I'm new to all this. Will you be posting it there? What is the forum?

I can't send you a private message as you don't have that feature as a new member. It is one of the Orthodox boards and quite a few of the posters here are members there as well. I will ask the moderator to pass that on to you. Thanks!

I realize how you all feel that this Mass was valid, due to having valid priests offering it. But as you can see, this is the blatant destruction of the Roman Rite before your very eyes. Everything that Pope Benedict XVI is trying to salvage in the Roman Rite, is being completely ignored by groups like this. It may be valid, because Rome allows it, but I detest it. Just as these groups and bishops detest the Extra-Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. What would Pope Pious V think about this Mass?. What would Prince Vladimir of Kiev think of this Mass if he were alive today. Is this Heaven on Earth.

Just because Latin American Catholics are becoming more attracted to Pentecostalism, is no justification to alter the Roman Rite, to make it look and feel more like a Pentecostal service, just to keep them Catholic. Not justified one bit!

Slava Isusu Christu!

I saw the Byzantine eparchs participation in the Liturgy as a sign of unity with the Latin bishops, not as a conspiracy to alter the Carpatho-Rusyn tradition. Aside from all the so-called defects in the liturgical celebration, it was in the language of the people, it called for their participation, used local customs and culture, and both kinds, bread and wine--which became the Body and Blood, were offered to the laos--sounds good to me. Was it of the taste of those who desire a restoration of medieval accretions? No. Was it a true Eucharist? Yes. I was glad there were people going to Liturgy.

Robert