www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall What Were Byzantine Catholic Bishops Thinking!?.

From Rorate Caeli. March 27, 2010. No wonder they don't take part in Ecumenical Services with the Orthodox. They prefer this style of worship.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/

Watch the ending of the ceremony. A great applause after a so called "valid" Roman Mass.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RECongress#p/a/u/1/dO1iLNdQHaY

I only have a few comments. First, I don't think that putting parentheses around the word valid was necessary as we enter Holy Week. Second, it was impressive that there were 40,000 in attendance. And yes, I do wonder what the Eastern bishops were thinking, as the very question was posed by the poster at rorate-caeli. Being of the Eastern tradition and mindset, I personally found it odd, but that is coming from me as an Orthodox Christian. The production struck me as an attempt to counter the impact so-called Protestant 'mega-churches' have these days.(Given Pope Benedict's academic history with respect to Liturgics, I wonder what he would think?) I am curious if any Eastern Catholic faithful were there and what their impression of the event was.

Quote: "Second, it was impressive that there were 40,000 in attendance."

They should have had it at Stonehenge.

I truly feel sorry for Pope Benedict XVI. He has this on top of the sex scandals in Europe to deal with.

I don't think, as we enter Holy Week, that it is the time to speculate as to what people's thoughts or feelings are/were regarding the Liturgy.

Although it may not be of our preference, it was indeed a valid mass, because it was celebrated by a valid minister of the sacrament, Bishop Gabino Zavala.

I saw 40,000 people who love God coming together to celebrate at the Table of the Lord.

Is the music what I prefer in church? Obviously not, or I wouldn't be Melkite. But it was joyful and rooted in praise. If I had been there, I would probably have joined in the rhythmic clapping of the entrance hymn, and I was glad to see the presiding bishop do so (rather than rigidly refraining and separating himself from his flock): As we in the Christian East know, worship involves our whole bodies, and music can be an integral part of that. I thought the bringing in of the incense was reverent and graceful. Remember that liturgical dance is part of an ancient tradition: Both Miriam and David danced before the Lord.

As for the clapping before the exit hymn, it seems that the presiding bishop was introducing all the key participants and thanking them for their hard work. I believe that in the context of culminating a conference of this type and in this setting, it was a pastorally appropriate action.

If I have offended anyone because of my musings on this topic, I ask your forgiveness as it was not my intent. As I have oft stated on this and other boards, I harbor no ill will towards my Catholic brothers and sisters, be they or the West or of the East, and I fully respect the divergence in ritual, rubrics and practice as we worship. That being said, I still have to say that while the presence of so many thousands rejoicing in the Lord was a wondrous thing, for my taste, the whole ambiance reminded me of a large scale Protestant gathering. On the other hand, having attended a large scale Orthodox Liturgy at Madison Square Garden some years ago, I remember leaving and telling my family that the organizers should have hired a Master of Ceremonies from the Roman Archdiocese of New York to make order and keep things moving along! I wish all of you a Blessed Holy Week and a most Joyous Pascha!

Hi all,

A brief introduction, since it's my first post, before I comment on this thread.

I've been reading the forum for about a year or so now, but I just registered this past fall when I started in the St Stephen's program. I'm a cradle RC (pre-Vatican II), but left the Church when I was about 11, that was 1963 or so. I pursued a number of non-Christian spiritual traditions for almost 40 years. When I was living in Bulgaria (1996-2005), I returned to the Catholic Church, but in its Byzantine expression. Shortly after coming back to the US and becoming a member of a Ruthenian Catholic parish here, I canonically transferred to the Byzantine Ruthenian Church.

I wanted to share a little background with you about Bishop Gerald's presence at that conference. I cannot speak for Bishop, of course, but I can give you some context for what was going on. Last year, Bishop decided the eparchy would have a vendor booth at the conference, to disseminate information on the Eastern Catholic Churches to the conference attendees. Bishop Gerald, one of our Basilian sisters, the pastor of my local parish, and myself went. We had a booth with many books on Eastern Christianity, plus icons, prayer ropes, etc. We also had lots of free literature about the history and spirituality of the Eastern Catholic Churches. Over the course of the 3 days, we had the opportunity to talk to hundreds of people who stopped by our booth. Some of these conversations were of real depth. Also, Fr Pipta from our church in San Diego gave a talk on Eastern Catholicism at one of the sessions on the conference schedule.

At the end of the conference, I did (hesitantly) attend the concluding Mass. It was pretty much the same as what they seem to have done this year. I have very little post VII RC experience, and so I was stunned and even horrified by what I saw. I cried for a bit as I sat there. And, yes, in some ways, it seemed very much like a Protestant mega-church service. To some of us, it felt more like a performance than a worship service. However, at the moment of the consecration, I understood that Our Lord was present, just as He is in the Byzantine liturgy I so love. For me, the form of that Mass was tragic and caused me great sorrow, but I believe that it is still a Mass.

For this year's conference, Bishop decided we would again have a booth, and the eparchy was also able to arrange to have a Byzantine liturgy on the conference schedule. Bishop Gerald concelebrated the liturgy with several priests of the eparchy. We had deacons, servers, choir, etc. We didn't know how many people would show up, but 1200 conference attendees came to our liturgy in a transformed hotel ballroom! Fr Rankin, the pastor of St Melany's here in Tucson, gave a talk to the attendees just prior to the start of the liturgy, explaining what they were about to see, and giving them some background and context for it.

I wasn't able to go this year, but when I inventoried the books that came back (our entire little bookstore had gone on the road to the conference), I discovered that we had sold almost every copy of every title we had that related to the Byzantine liturgy. I'm sure this was a direct result of people having attended our liturgy, as last year, not a single title on Byzantine liturgy sold.

I know that last year many of the people who came by our booth expressed how glad they were that there was an Eastern Catholic presence at the conference. And many catechists who came by took materials to share with their students.

While I don't always agree with all the decisions and policies of the Byzantine Ruthenian Church in the US, I do think there was a good purpose served both years in our being at this conference. We were like a little oasis, and there were people who came to drink of our water.

Hope you're all having a blessed and fruitful Great Fast,

Jaya

Liturgical dance, even tho biblical, isn't part of received tradition in the Catholic Church except in Alaska, Australia, and Africa. And outside those areas, it's forbidden.

And in Alaska, it's restricted to DURING the opening and closing hymns, and only if they are Native hymns and native dance... and it has to be a dance of a biblical story, and not an everyday kind of thing.

Not to mention that on top of all the other objections to this sad display, clapping during the Liturgy is directly opposed to the Roman Rite's sense of sobriety. It has been discouraged innumerable times from bishops and from the Vatican, and from Pope Benedict himself, who had some fairly harsh words to say, if I recall, about clapping during the Liturgy.

Alexis

Thank you for the explanation about your Bishop's participation at the conference and the closing Mass. That certainly sheds some light on what occurred. Since the same article was posted by the same poster on an Orthodox board this morning, would you consider allowing your response to be posted there so as to allow those who only follow that board to better understand Bishop Gerard's participation? He is a native of my city and like many families, his was torn between the Byzantine Catholic parish and my ACROD parish so we feel some degree of spiritual connection with him.

Yes, that would be fine for my response to be posted on the other forum.

I'm new to all this. Will you be posting it there? What is the forum?

I can't send you a private message as you don't have that feature as a new member. It is one of the Orthodox boards and quite a few of the posters here are members there as well. I will ask the moderator to pass that on to you. Thanks!

I realize how you all feel that this Mass was valid, due to having valid priests offering it. But as you can see, this is the blatant destruction of the Roman Rite before your very eyes. Everything that Pope Benedict XVI is trying to salvage in the Roman Rite, is being completely ignored by groups like this. It may be valid, because Rome allows it, but I detest it. Just as these groups and bishops detest the Extra-Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. What would Pope Pious V think about this Mass?. What would Prince Vladimir of Kiev think of this Mass if he were alive today. Is this Heaven on Earth.

Just because Latin American Catholics are becoming more attracted to Pentecostalism, is no justification to alter the Roman Rite, to make it look and feel more like a Pentecostal service, just to keep them Catholic. Not justified one bit!

Slava Isusu Christu!

I saw the Byzantine eparchs participation in the Liturgy as a sign of unity with the Latin bishops, not as a conspiracy to alter the Carpatho-Rusyn tradition. Aside from all the so-called defects in the liturgical celebration, it was in the language of the people, it called for their participation, used local customs and culture, and both kinds, bread and wine--which became the Body and Blood, were offered to the laos--sounds good to me. Was it of the taste of those who desire a restoration of medieval accretions? No. Was it a true Eucharist? Yes. I was glad there were people going to Liturgy.

Robert

Unity with Western Bishops who wish to destroy the rich traditions and liturgical beauty of the Roman Rite. And replace them with secular and liberal worship styles.

An "Iconoclast" of the Roman Liturgy!!, is a good analogy.

Maybe know I should re-think my unity with the Holy Orthodox Church. Full Unity!.

Jaya,

Welcome to the Forum!

I am so happy to hear that there was a Divine Liturgy celebrated at this year's REC.

I actually served at the last Divine Liturgy at REC many years ago. I believe it took place at the same hotel ballroom. The liturgy was celebrated by Father Alexei Smith from Saint Andrew's Russian Catholic parish and con-celebrated by Byzantine Catholic priests from different eparchies. His Eminence Cardinal Mahony was present, standing at the spot in the sanctuary reserved for the bishop. No other bishop, Byzantine or Roman was present. Attendance was full.

Jaya,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for that post explaining the Byzantine presence and involvement at the conference.

Many years,

Neil

Here is a good point brought up by someone at CAF about this spectacle.

Quote: “Saddening. This Mass was a purposeful and direct smack in the face to the Vatican and Catholic Liturgy. The Archdiocese chose to celebrate the closing liturgy of its big RE conference illicitly.

For starters, the sacred vessels were glass and wicker.

Yet, Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum explicitly states that,

“”Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily.”

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co…ml#Chapter%20V ”

GC-

Deacon John Bradley (St Anne's, SLO) and I served the DL @ the REC with Bishop Gerald. Fr Alexei was a concelebrant, there was one RC priest and the rest were BC priests of the Eparchy of Phoenix. Bishop Ken of the Ukranian Eparchy of New Westminister, BC also concelebrated. All the people to whom I spoke after the DL were quite taken with our "mass". A number of RC deacons and their wives commented on the service the BC deacons provide during the DL, "you sure do more than we do."

On Sunday, I served Bishop Gerald as he celebrated the DL at Annunciation in Anaheim, CA.

Does anyone know if the Byzantine Divine Liturgy at the conference was recorded and/or placed on youtube?

Elizabeth

No doubt the Prince would think the same thing he thought about the Mass in his own day... He did, after all, choose the Divine Liturgy as celebrated in the Great Church of Hagia Sophia over all other religious expressions.

My Director of Religious Education, my "boss" for RCIA at my Latin Parish, looks forward to "the LA Congress" every year. She is very taken with the liturgies there. She told me they were podcasting this year so I looked up the videos and I wasn't surprised to find that to me what I saw was very troubling, totally the opposite direction from where I "go" when I seek worship. I noticed the EC bishops processing in during the Closing Liturgy and wondered what they must have been thinking at that moment.

Different comment: My DRE sent me a very excited email the day she returned -- "Went to a Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy Friday night. Wonderful! Talk to you about it tonight." She was very excited about having attended a DL, her first, when we did finally get a chance to talk. I asked if many were there and she said the ballroom where it was held was packed.

She said a priest (?) had given a very helpful explanation before the DL. She met the same priest/deacon at their literature booth later and talked at some length with him. (Was that you Fr Deacon John?) I understood from her that he said it had been a number of years since the ECs last participated. (She tried to find my Russian parish on the list there of Byz Caths but we weren't on it. I said that was probably because we aren't in their eparchy, in fact we haven't got a heirarch and are under Latin bishops.)

As might be expected participating in the Divine Liturgy impacted her in a way any bits and pieces I've shared about ECs has not. I have to wonder what she would have thought had she been in an actual temple with an iconostasis etc.

So, I'm very grateful you had a presence there. I'm grateful my DRE has a much better idea of who I, her catechist, am now from that experience, who we ECs are, and as Fr Deacon John Montalvo indicates my DRE wasn't the only one who was very taken by the experience.

As I said about the presence of Fr. Abbot Nicholas and Fr Tom Loya at the installation of our bishop last year in Oakland, their presence in ECC garb [tinyurl.com] had more impact than anything I'd been saying about Eastern and Oriental Catholics. So many people came up to me there and after asking me about them. At the Chrism Mass last week someone came up to me and was talking about wanting to come to Divine Liturgy again. (She came once after meeting Fr Loya at the installation.)

It was clear my DRE is not "drawn" to the East, but what was just a remote intellectual concept about the ECCs up to now for her is very much altered by her experience of the DL at the LA Congress. !

I couldn't find it. www.recongress.org/live/default.htm [recongress.org]

I see now Jaya said it was Fr Rankin.

Allow me to throw my own "monkey wrench" into the conversation. For years, I've been reading lay-run "conservative" Catholic newspapers with a national circulation. Whenever they have commented upon these LA Catechetical Congresses, they always have mentioned that the list of speakers constitutes a "Who's Who" of prominent dissidents against official teachings of the Church, i.e., those who promote "women's ordination", those who want the Church to change her teachings on homosexual behavior, etc. They may allow one or two orthodox speakers to provide cover, etc. If this is still the case, no orthodox Catholic bishop should be seen anywhere near such a conference. The current Archbishop of Los Angeles does not exactly have a stellar reputation for promoting and defending orthodoxy.

Dn. Robert

It appears that in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles the sheep are leading the shepherds. I find this sad and I do not know what's to be done. That this kind of liturgical abuse went on in individual parishes and assemblies I was aware. That it was done in the presence and with the apparent collaboration of bishops constitutes acquiesence of the worst kind. Forgive me, but I wanted to trip that dancing deacon and rescue the book of Gospels. I'm sure the same bishops will visit Rome on their "ad limina" visits and pay lip service to good Pope Benedict.

Sadly, this is not the case in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. Cardinal Mahoney's vision for Liturgy is outlined in his pastoral letter "Gather Faithfully Together", which has dictated Liturgy in Los Angeles for several trying years. Gather Faithfully Together [books.google.com]

Fr. Dcn., there is certainly doubt as to that! How silly a statement.

Alexis

Alexis,

Do you think that Prince Vladimir of Kiev would think highly of the Mass portrayed in these you tube videos?

I doubt his opinion would be favorable.

John

Alexis:

Prince Vladimir's envoys had traveled to Rome and weren't really enamored of the Latin DL, according to tradition. They were, however, simply swept away by their experience of the DL in Hagia Sopia in Contantinople, not knowing whther they were "in Heaven or on earth" and exlcaiming that they knew that "God did, indeed, dwell among men in that place." See The Orthodox Church, by Bishop Kallistos Ware.

The moral of the story is that the Holy Spirit moves men in various cultures to repond in varying ways to express the same entry into the Mystery of Christ, God coming into His creation to re-establish the relationship broken by sin, the sin of our first parents and of us.

Bob

It being Holy Week for all of us, I think it is appropriate for those of us who are Orthodox to stop our speculation and complaining about what another Church should or shouldn't be doing with respect to her liturgical norms or aberrations as the case may be. At first I couldn't understand why the Byzantine Catholic Bishop Gerald was involved, but after re-reading Jaya's post, I can see where His Grace saw an opportunity to expose a large number of western Catholics to the beauty and solemnity of the Liturgical expressions of the Christian East - that is the beloved Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which we Orthodox honor along with our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters. God works in strange ways and great indeed are His mysteries. I for one, am grateful that Bishop Gerald used his opportunity to participate in the conference to allow some light to shine in the direction of the Christian East in the face of what we Orthodox, and many others, may regard as an odd, to say the least, celebration as portrayed on the videos in question.

I'd echo my brother's call for an end to this speculation during the approaching Holy Week. I noticed, in a quick visit to our neighboring Orthodox site, that the comments there were - for the most part - ones of 'it really isn't our concern'. I'd suggest that this is as true for ECs as it is for our EO brethren. As to why any of our bishops were present, that's been discussed and explained.

If we believe that the Mass served there was a valid celebration of the Eucharist, albeit not according to the Latin Church's rubrical norms, then one is free to have been appalled by the form of its celebration, but one cannot 'detest' (as I believe someone wrote) the Mass itself. And one can undertand that a bishop was certainly not free to walk off the altar in protest of it - to do so would have been incredibly disrespectful to He Whose Body and Blood was confected on that altar.

As I think the topic has run its course and further diatribes on it are hardly in keeping with the spirit of Holy Week, the thread is closed.

Many years,

Neil