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Why do Ukrainian separatists and Americans (who have no stake in this issue), cry foul when Malyrussniaki ask to be left alone? There are those of us who will not stand idly by while Rus is carved up to be devoured by the West.

Alexandr

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Because if you want to be Russian, Great or Little, Russia has plenty of land for you to be Russian in. As for Rus, it has already been carved up, welcome to 2010. And if Ukraine has turned to the West, Russia has noone to blame but herself.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Alexandr. What makes you think the West is behind Ukraine being independent? This is the argument, unfortunately, that the Kompartiya (Communist Party) makes. In 1991, the people of Ukraine voted for independence on their own, with no help whatsoever from the West. They wished to be free of Russian imperial repression. If anything, the at-the-time President of the U.S.A., George Bush Senior, was against the dismantling of the Soviet Union. Ukrainians decided on their own to be rid of the Soviet empire. Please refrain from using the derogatory term "molorossy" as many Ukrainians during the Soviet Union perished in the Gulag for protecting the Ukrainian underground Church, culture, and language. Unless of course you agree that coerced Russification was acceptable.

In 1988, the Cardinal of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, Myroslav Lubachivsky, wrote a Pastoral Letter to the entire Russian nation asking forgiveness for any wrongs. Many Ukrainians felt this unwarranted because at the time Ukrainians were suffering under the Russian yoke. But as Jesus Christ Himself said, what good are you if you only love those who love you in return, even the tax collectors....

Do you think any member of the Russian Church or nation ever responded to the Ukrainian offer of mutual forgiveness in Christ? Has anyone ever from the Russian Orthodox Church ever asked forgiveness for accepting the liquidation of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in 1946? Not one, even though the Russian Orthodox Church maintains itself as a continuation of that same Church.

Patriarch Filaret of the Ukrainian Orthodox Kyivan Patriarchate publicly recanted of his cooperation with the K.G.B. during the Soviet era. This is entirely different to Patriarch Kirill of the Russian Orthodox Church who has never recanted anything from the Soviet era, even though he became the Russian Orthodox representative to the World Council of Churches in 1972, clearly with the Kremlin's approval. According to the Times Online, Patriarch Kirill's codename in the K.G.B. was Mikhailov.

This whole question has nothing to do with the West. It has everything to do with Christian respect and love. Ukrainians do not wish Russia ill-will. In fact in Ukraine, the Russian language and Church and culture have free reign. In Russia, the second largest ethnic group is the Ukrainians. Guess how many Ukrainian Catholic Churches or Ukrainian schools are allowed in Putin's Russia?

In Christ,

Vladzyunyu.

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There are two sides to every story, even if one side does not particularly care to hear the other side. And if you check the news, the tide has turned in the Ukraine. The Sevastopol base lease has been extended another 40 years, and Ukraine has regained it's sanity and peace is once again being restored in the Rus family.


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According to the BBC today Ukraine is not unified in its support of the Russian Naval presence. In fact there was violence inside the Ukrainian Parliament during the vote.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8645847.stm

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I think the premise of this original post in this thread is really misleading, at best. Did anyone read the article? Patriarch Filaret doesn't say "he wants unity with the U.G.C.C." or that he thinks Ukraine politics are unfavorable to his cause. This was editorializing in the first post. He does say he would hope for unity with the U.G.C.C. - AFTER all the Orthodox in Ukraine have united into a single body. Now this is something quite different. That possibility seems a long way off indeed. He was not making any kind of overture to the U.G.C.C. in any sense.

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Patriarch Filaret? Who appointed him? What happened to his predecessor? And what Orthodox churches recognize him? Just want to address those questions first.

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Chadrook, exactly. I wonder the same. smile

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You might want to tread lightly on that "What Orthodox Churches recognize him?" question, considering how many now-canonical Orthodox Churches began as non-canonical breakaways of the Ecumenical or Moscow Patriarchates. Until recently, how many Orthodox Churches recognized the OCA?

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To follow that note a good example may be (and I mean no offense) how ROCOR was in Communion with the Romanian, Bulgarian, and one of the Synods of Greek Old Calendar Bishops. Now some in ROCOR say that they (the Bulgarian, Romanian, and Greek Old Calendar Churches) are no longer "Orthodox" but only a few years ago they were.

Or the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, which was in "schism" for a long time because the EP would not recognize her independence.

There seems to be a pattern of this in Orthodoxy in the late 19th and 20th century (I am not sure of anything before that)

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 04/28/10 04:28 AM.
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Still the question stands. Stuart you use a bad example by pointing out the OCA. The United States has its unique jurisdictional problems and cannot compare to a place that has been orthodox for over a thousand years. And Nelson who are these some in ROCOR? I dont have a dog in this fight but there is alot to be said for when it comes to who you are in communion with and it makes it easy for us laymen to get to know who he is. Chad

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Who appointed Philaret? He was elected by the Great Council of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate.

What happened to his predecessors? (Note the plural, please). His immediate predecessor was Kyr Volodymyr (Romaniuk), who died a natural death. He in turn succeeded Patriarch Mystyslav (Skrypnyk), who had lived for several decades in America before being elected Patriarch in Ukraine.

What Orthodox Churches recognize Philaret? So far as I am aware, no Local Orthodox Church currently extends full, formal recognition to Philaret.

The OCA may well be a poor example, Perhaps it is better to consider the Orthodox Church of Poland, which was first proclaimed Orthodox by the Ecumenical Patriarchate because of the lack of normal communications with Moscow and then, some thirty years later, was forced to repudiate the autocephaly granted by Constantinople and then given another autocephaly by Moscow.

One could also discuss the matter of Bulgaria (which has also been Orthodox for a thousand years or so), excommunicated by Constantinople but supported by Moscow. And there is the matter of the Orthodox Church of Czechoslovakia - or perhaps I should say the Orthodox Churches
of Czechoslovakia since this country managed to have one Orthodox Church derived from Moscow and another derived from Constantinople.

I could continue, but there's not much point in listing yet more examples.

Fr. Serge

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Thank you Father for giving me an answer on this. I understand the mess when it comes to the whose who of the Orthodox world but it is kind of strange that he is not recognized by any of the Orthodox churches. This is not one of those straw man arguments I really dont know anything about them. I am in a very small church that some would say is walled off but I know why and can explain it. Chad

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Originally Posted by chadrook
Patriarch Filaret? Who appointed him? What happened to his predecessor? And what Orthodox churches recognize him? Just want to address those questions first.

His synod elected him. His synod is a schism, but all of its priests and bishops were validly ordained. The schism was over autonomy vs autocephaly, and the fundamental nature of the relationship between Moskva and Kyiv...

The patriarchal succession is HB. Mstyslav (1992-1993), HB Volodymyr (1993-1995), and HB Filaret (1995-present).


The Catholic Churches all recognize His Beattitude as a validly ordained bishop and a validly elected primate of an autocephalous church... one with whom much ecumenical discussion has been done.

The Russian Orthodox consider him outside the faith; a schismatic and possible heretic.

The Ecumenical Patriarch is in discussions of recognition of the UOC-KP's autocephaly.

All in all, it's a reasonably typical establishment of an autocephalous patriarchate within the Eastern Orthodox Communion... and that is truly the sad part of it. Plenty of historical schisms and eventual reunions in the EOC...



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What does that have to do with the price of pirozhi's in Moscow?
Stephanos I

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