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djs,
I wish you'd start another thread if you can't resist the childishness.
On the comment that fits this thread: I don't see what the state department has to do with it. Unless we can't find any way to get into the country other than through it why would Christians care what the State department thinks. My only concern would be what do the Chaldean Christians think of it?
God's ways are greater than ours. I'm not likely to fuss with the Orthodox any more than I'll fuss with the American Government. God is doing what He wishes through governmental leaders. What really concerns me is God's call upon Christians and specifically upon me.
If you want a political thread go start one. Even there, if I post at all, I'll only ask questions for discernment. I rather suspect any poster's wisdom and his intentions who repeatedly mock or challenge the leaders God Himself has allowed to lead.
Dan L
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Dan, A visa is required to enter Iraq. It's probably not easy to get one. I suspect the influence of our government on the matter is weighty under the present political situation in Iraq, and our State department gives a very strong advisory to keep out. http://travel.state.gov/travel/iraq_warning.html It might be amusing to apply for a visa and see what happens. I rather suspect any poster's wisdom and his intentions who repeatedly mock or challenge the leaders God Himself has allowed to lead. Dan, I have read on various boards your preference for a monarchy - presumably a divine right one. I, however, am happy to live in our American democracy. Such challenges were vital to its founding and are the part of the eternal vigilance that we pay as the price of liberty. Your insults about my maturity and suspicions about my wisdom and motives will not discourage me from exercising this American birthright. I have nothing to offer to dispel your suspicions about my wisdom. On the other hand, my intentions I would think are transparent. I rarely start threads or tangents to threads on these topics. But I do respond to comments that I suspect are truth- , logic- and/or reality-challenged. As to the propriety of these postings, that is in the hands of the adminstrator and moderators.
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Zenovia,
I'm not sure how your post is related to anything else on this thread. With 20-20 hindsight Dear DJS, I don't know why I posted it there. Frankly, I can't understand it either. I must have been reacting to something. But since it has been, and there have been responses, I will say that we have to relate the current war with the great wars of the past. In WWI, twenty-thousand men were killed each and every day. In WWII, I believe America alone was losing over 300 men each day. Now, had we foreseen the situation before WWII, and had we gone to war earlier, maybe, just maybe, we would not have lost over 300 men a day...not to mention the loss of all of Europe's youth and especially Germany's, as well as the destruction of Warsaw, Leningrad, Berlin, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. So if we were not in Iraq now, trying to change the current civilization in that part of the world, maybe, just maybe, we might save millions of lives in the end. If on the other hand we did not go into Iraq, when it was shown that Suddam wanted sanctions lifted so that he could start a new program of WMD's, and something were to happen, then the burden of Pres. Bush's 'inaction' would have laid squarely on his shoulders. One thing we can all learn from history, is that tyrants perceive 'inaction'towards aggression as a sign of weakness. Remember, our planes were being shot at each day by Saddam's military. As for the situation with the break-up of Yugoslavia, I can't help but remember how CNN paid each Muslim Kosovan five dollars for every exit photographed on TV. Neither can I forget, the turbaned Iranians, etc. in the background that made sure the exiting was not permanent. It's kind of a pity that almost all the ancient monasteries and churches have now been destroyed. So much for Clinton's guarantee towards the Serbs, and that they will be protected. Zenovia
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Dear Zenovia, I agree that the NATO forces turned a blind eye towards assaultson Orthodox sites in Kosovo. I similarly don't hold out much hope that forces in Iraq will attach a high priority to Christian assets. Maybe just bringing them all here is the best solution. If on the other hand we did not go into Iraq, when it was shown that Suddam wanted sanctions lifted so that he could start a new program of WMD's, and something were to happen, then the burden of Pres. Bush's 'inaction' would have laid squarely on his shoulders. This underscores the second point I made a few posts back to Dan. Pre-emptive strategies are inherently belligerent: we will be so strongly biased against missing a threat that we will act unjustly against empty ones. So if we were not in Iraq now, trying to change the current civilization in that part of the world, maybe, just maybe, we might save millions of lives in the end. Part of just war theory demands that we have a reasonable chance of successfully achieving our goals. We can't just say, well let's try something new, or act on a hope, undisciplined by reasonable analysis, that maybe things will work out good in the end, whenever that might be. And what do we learn from the history of Western occupation of these lands during the 19-20th centuries?
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I have said on other posts and will say again, that a great weakness in American foreign policy is that it changes every 4 to 8 years depending on which candidate is elected as president. We have no consistency in foreign policy. That has to drive the other nations of the world completely nuts in dealing with us. On the Iraq war, no it was not well thought out in advance. If it had been, perhaps weapons stores would have been secured and enough of the Iraqi Army left in place to help keep order. I don't know if the U.S. military command is responsible or if someone else micro-managed the war from higher up. I am quite happy about the fact that my Republican congressman opposed this war from the start. He wasn't interested in taking the most popular position, he did what he thought was right. Needless to say, he will get my vote in the next election. But as for now, we are in the war. How do we get out of it? And to get back on topic, what could be done to help the Christians of Iraq?
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Byz,
I've offered an idea or two, but I do have a quesion. How do you know it wasn't well thought out in advance? Are you privy, or is anyone privy, to the inner workings of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and others who plan such things, who isn't in the inner circle? We may find a policy pleasing or displeasing but how does one know whether or not it is planned out well?
Dan L
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Dan, I hope you don't mind if I address your question. Here's story published today: Post-war planning non-existent By WARREN P. STROBEL and JOHN WALCOTT Knight Ridder Newspapers http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9927782.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp While you may accept the account of these journalists, Rumsfeld's own investigative panel for the Abu Ghraib scandal made similar conclusions. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30099-2004Aug24.html Bush has publically stipulated to the miscalculation. Fri, 27 Aug 2004
President George W. Bush, in an interview published on Friday with The New York Times, said he miscalculated post-war conditions in Iraq and that the long insurgency was the product of a "swift victory."
In what the daily said was the US president's first acknowledgement on the issue, Bush said he made a "miscalculation of what the conditions would be" in post-war Iraq.
He said the miscalculation was an unintended by-product of a "swift victory," adding that Saddam Hussein's forces quickly went into hiding in Iraqi cities where they mounted a rebellion far faster than the Americans had anticipated.
The daily said Bush refused to go into detail on what went wrong, saying that it was a task best left to historians. This isn't really a secret. A Military General and Bush Administration Officials Admit Bush Never Had Concrete Plan for Post-War Iraq. Bush administration officials and military personnel admitted that there was never a real plan for post-war Iraq operations. Posed with the question of whether the Army had an outlined plan for peacekeeping in Iraq, V Corps Commander Lt. Gen. William Wallace said, "Well, we're making this up here as we go along." A former-senior administration official said, "There was no real planning for postwar Iraq." Knight Ridder reported, "The disenchanted U.S. officials today think the failure of the Pentagon civilians to develop such detailed plans contributed to the chaos in post-Saddam Iraq. 'We could have done so much better,' lamented a former senior Pentagon official, who is still a Defense Department adviser." [Newsweek, 7/21/03; Knight Ridder, 7/12/03]
Secret Joint Chiefs Report: Pentagon Planners Were Not Given Enough Time to Consider Reconstruction in Post-War Iraq. In August 2003, the Joint Chiefs of Staff prepared a secret report called "Operation Iraqi Freedom Strategic Lessons Learned." The report, described by the Washington Times, blamed "setbacks in Iraq on a flawed and rushed war-planning process that 'limited the focus' for preparing for post-Saddam Hussein operations." The Times noted that the Joint Chiefs report "reveals discrepancies in the planning process. It says planners were not given enough time to put together the best blueprint for what is called Phase IV �- the ongoing reconstruction of Iraq." [Washington Times, 9/3/03]
Was Bush Administration Prepared for Postwar Chaos? Retired General Anthony Zinni, a former chief of the US Central Command, responded to Donald Rumsfeld's comments that he couldn't have predicted the chaos in Iraq. "I'm surprised that he is surprised because there was a lot of us who were telling him that it was going to be thus�Anyone could know the problems they were going to see. How could they not?" [San Diego Union Tribune, 4/16/04]
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Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
Byz,
I've offered an idea or two, but I do have a quesion. How do you know it wasn't well thought out in advance? Are you privy, or is anyone privy, to the inner workings of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and others who plan such things, who isn't in the inner circle? We may find a policy pleasing or displeasing but how does one know whether or not it is planned out well?
Dan L Of course, I don't get to sit in on the strategy sessions, so I have no inside information. But I can look at what's happening in Iraq and draw my own conclusions. I see all those weapons floating around freely and being used against U.S. troops. Now I would think that immediately securing the weapons depots would have been a priority with experienced military commanders. Seemingly, no one thought about that. So did the military skip over this, or did someone higher up micromanage everything and effectively take such decisions out of the hands of the military? What about disabling the Iraqi Army and the police forces to the point that they had to be rebuilt, in the meantime causing U.S. forces to assume the role of police? U.S. troops are soldiers, not policemen - a job for which they have little training. So it causes me to wonder if such housekeeping details were not thought of, or just ignored. I find it difficult to believe experienced military planners would not think of such things.
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I also find it difficult that military people did not think of such things. That's precisely why I think they did.
The closest I can get to an insider is my brother in law who has accomplished several covert operations for the government over almost thirty years. While not knowing the details or even where he was in these operations his opinion, and it is doubtless worth more than mine, is that the borders were left open in order to encourage terrorists to come to Iraq. This is something like a roach trap. In Iraq they would be captured or killed.
Sounds as feasible as anything else I've read or heard.
To Irish Melkite, I apologize for my part in helping to deteriorate this post. I think it is hopelessly lost. Perhaps you would like to start another on the subject of the attacks upon Chaldean Churches in another section of the board. I promise not to initiate or to get sucked into a Bush bashing/defense discussion again.
Dan L
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Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
...Or what if we had groups of Western Christians go and help rebuild the bombed out Churches? What if we had done this in 1937-38 for Synagogues in Germany?
Just looking for some way to useful.
Dan L Dan, Catholic Near East Welfare Association is helping Iraqi Christians rebuild. They are also helping Muslims with relief too. I know there are European Catholic agencies helping in Iraq. Maybe some of our Forum members can name them. God bless you, Paul
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I also find it difficult that military people did not think of such things. That's precisely why I think they did. Dan, that is consistent with what I posted and a great deal of othrer public information. Objections to the administrations plan, however, were not well received. The closest I can get to an insider is my brother in law who has accomplished several covert operations for the government over almost thirty years. While not knowing the details or even where he was in these operations his opinion, and it is doubtless worth more than mine, is that the borders were left open in order to encourage terrorists to come to Iraq. This is something like a roach trap. In Iraq they would be captured or killed. That's interesting. I made an anlogous speculation. Developing a theatre of war in Iraq provided proximate targets for terrorists; they could attack us in Iraq rather than in the US. Better still, they could attack Iraqi that cooperate with us. This straegy would keep the violence out of the US and primarily away from US citizens.
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Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon, As someone else pointed out here, it does seem that Christians living in the West do not care at all about Christians in the Middle East. That has been the underlying point in my posts on the Catholic Response to Palestinian Suffering thread. That is why I have encouraged people to go to websites that Christian Sites on the Middle East and for the Middle East. A couple are: Holy Land Christian Ecumenical Fund [ hcef.org] is a nonprofit organization founded in 1999 by concerned Christians, to help preserve Christian presence in the Holy Land. HCEF is committed to improving the lives of Christians in the Holy Land by developing bonds of solidarity with Christians in the United States. One of their programs that I love is: Steps to Support the Mother Church
We encourage you to work with HCEF to support the Holy Land Christians and the Mother Church by fostering a true ongoing relationship with you and your community. By initiating a link between your church and one or more of HCEF's outreach and assistance programs, we will be working together to provide hope for the preservation of our Christian heritage in the Holy Land.
Contact HCEF to discuss the ways in which we can initiate one or more of HCEF's programs in your church.
Have HCEF hold a workshop or symposium of informational activities and presentations in your geographic area. This is an excellent way to share the message with clergy, lay leaders, and members of the congregation.
Arrange for someone from HCEF to speak in your church to explain the plight of the Christians in the Holy Land and HCEF's programs.
Invite HCEF to work with lay leaders, religious educators, Mission Offices, Christian Services Departments, or a pastor from your church to set up programs of support.
Have HCEF organize a fact-finding mission to the Holy Land for interested faithful from your church.
Form a Holy Land Christian Support Network (HCSN) committee. A group of individuals from your area (clergy, lay leaders, and faithful) can educate others about supporting the Holy Land Christians and the Mother Church.
Keep the Holy Land Christians in prayer.
Pray for peace in the Holy Land. You also have: Al Bushra [ al-bushra.org] For the Palestinian American Roman Catholic Community. It is supported by Fr. Kopti who is a priest of the Roman Patriarhate of Jerusalem. CNEWA (Catholic Near East Welfare Association) [ cnewa.org] which is a Papal agency serving the Churches and peoples of the Middle East, Northeast Africa, India and Eastern Europe. Holy Land Trust [ holylandtrust.org] is a non-profit humanitarian organization dedicated to strengthening and improving the lives of children, families and communities in the Middle East. Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem – United States of America: [ holysepulchre.net ] Order has prayed and worked to bring peace and tranquillity, love and justice to the sacred land of Palestine. It is these things together with its living history and absolute fidelity to the popes that make the Order today what it is and provide it with such a significantly unique place within the bosom of the church and at the heart of the Apostolic See. Maronite Church [ usamaronite.org] Melkite Greek Catholic Church [ melkite.org] Middle East Council Of Churches [ mecchurches.org] Evangelicals For Middle East Understanding [ emeu.net] Churches For Middle East Peace [ cmep.org] Christian Foundation For The Holy Land [ christianfoundationholyland.org] Every Church A Peace Church [ ecapc.org] No Christian in this Country has an excuse for being ignorant of the plight of Middle Eastern Christians. The only one that they can use is that they choose to be ignorant. Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon, Yuhannon
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Yuhannon,
Thanks for sharing the names of many organizations who do works of charity in the Middle East.
I am personally aquianted with the Catholic Near East Welfare Assoc. The work they do with both Christians and Muslims is amazing.
Paul
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Shlomo Paul,
Thank you for the warm words. It is mine and other Christians from the regions wish that people go to us and our sources, and not the general media which has a limited understanding of us, and our needs.
Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon
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Just this last weekend and near the end of Ramadan, there were two more bombings at or near churches in Baghdad, St. George's and St. Mark's. Many Christian women are wearing Moslem-style clothing to not antagonize their Muslim neighbors who I am beginning to believe are a bunch or morons after only a few weeks in country and screening prisoners every day at Abu Ghraib Prison where I am working after retiring from law enforcement. I had visions of being able to attend Chaldean churches while here but it looks like I will be spending 12 months behind the walls of this prison. We do have an OCA chaplain in country, Fr. Leslie Schallbach, but he is stuck someplace else. So to everybody who is venting about problems in their parishes over languages, styles of chants, etc. please stop and think about our brothers and sisters in Iraq who can't even wear non-moslem clothing without getting harassed or worse by their neighbors.
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