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AthanasiusTheLesser Member
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AthanasiusTheLesser Member
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Dear Athanasius, in a free society a private business owner should be able to turn away any customer for any reason. I can't quite wrap my mind around the fact that folks seem to think they can dictate to private citizens what they can't or can't do in their homes or in their place of business.
Again we have free will and we will be held accountable for our actions before God. Dear Fr. Deacon: And I can't quite wrap my mind around the idea that we have Christians on this forum endorsing the idea that a business owner should have the "freedom" to refuse services to someone for anyone for any reason whatsoever. Look at how black Americans suffered in the past in the name of such a perverse notion of freedom. I suppose it is wrong that many of them now have jobs that they would not have had in the past, and that they now have access to all the same goods and services that white Americans have access to, because their access was wrongfully obtained by our violating the "freedom" of the poor, oppressed racists who, but for the evil of tyrannical U.S. government would still be "free" to deny the humanity of black Americans and continue to refuse to hire them, and sell them food, and offer them medical services, etc.
Last edited by Athanasius The L; 05/30/10 01:29 PM.
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AthanasiusTheLesser Member
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AthanasiusTheLesser Member
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Paul VI is not the only pope who has called for anti-discrimination legislation. John Paul II did as well. Furthermore, I don't buy your equating legislation outlawing racial discrimination with socialism. I'm sure millions of black Americans don't either. However, I feel fairly certain that they are scandalized and deeply hurt when they hear Christians defended the "rights" and "freedom" of bigots to refuse to hire them, to refuse to sell them goods, to refuse to offer them services, etc.
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AthanasiusTheLesser Member
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AthanasiusTheLesser Member
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I still would like for someone here who defends the rights of bigoted business owners to discriminate against anyone for any reason to tell me how long black Americans should have to have waited to have merely the chance to move out of permanent second-class status? I have lived my entire life of 39 years in the South (where the black American population is concentrated), and I can assure you that racial hatred still runs deep enough in many places in the South that black Americans would still be denied jobs, service in restaurants, service in hotels, even the ability to purchase certain goods and services (possibly even medical care) in certain locales simply because they are black. Do you mean to tell me that this should be tolerated in the name of "freedom?"
Last edited by Athanasius The L; 05/30/10 02:05 PM.
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The private and public sectors are two different things. That's why we've had people like Barry Goldwater who voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 on the basis that it was government interference in a person's private property. Years before that Goldwater had fought against racial discrimination in the public sector in Arizona.
As for the horror stories, no one has a monopoly on them, but you won't typically hear those of European ancestry interviewed on TV, relating there stories of what it was like when there neighborhoods in Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Gary etc changed from white to black.
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AthanasiusTheLesser Member
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AthanasiusTheLesser Member
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True enough that no one has a monopoly on horror stories. However, let's be honest. In the history of the USA, the black community has suffered at the hands of white racists far more than the white community has suffered at the hands of black racists.
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Peter Peter, the 20+ weeks maternity leave is NOT guaranteed paid (unless that was legislated in the last 6 years). 6 weeks, yes. Rest is unpaid leave, with some states requiring longer, but with the option to use personal or sick leave for pay.
6 years ago, my youngest was born. The AK Dept of Labor is still using the same handouts as back then.
Last edited by aramis; 05/31/10 07:51 AM.
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Peter Peter, the 20+ weeks maternity leave is NOT guaranteed paid (unless that was legislated in the last 6 years). 6 weeks, yes. Rest is unpaid leave, with some states requiring longer, but with the option to use personal or sick leave for pay.
6 years ago, my youngest was born. The AK Dept of Labor is still using the same handouts as back then. I was talking about the legislation in Poland, which is: - 20 weeks of maternity leave if one child was born - 31 weeks for twins - 33 weeks if 3 children were born - 35 weeks if 4 - 37 weeks if 5 or more Maternity leave is in Poland obligatory, so women cannot decide not to take it, and the employer has nothing to say about this. A woman can only decide about the date of the leave (it can start immediately on the day of childbirth, or up to 2 weeks before that date). Women adopting a child up to the age of 7 are also eligible for maternity leave. During the entire period of leave women receive full salary (100% of her average salary from the last 12 months, to be exact). The leave can be shortened only in predefined cases (like adoption or death of the child - but still, it never can be shorter than 8 weeks). During the special 3-year-long leave for bringing up a child only the social security is being covered. In general these are very complicated matters, it is possible that I have confused something (but undoubtely entire period of the leave is guaranteed paid). I think some of the costs are covered by the state, and there are some tricks to avoid that legislation - but all this legal tricks are beyond my cognitive abilities.
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Here is an interesting perspective from a black conservative columnist, which can be found here [ townhall.com]: The Error of Rand Paul
Joseph C. Phillips Monday, May 31, 2010
Two weeks ago Dr. Rand Paul, an ophthalmologist and the Republican U.S. Senate candidate from Kentucky, appeared on the Rachel Maddow show to clarify statements he had made, which seemed to suggest that he would have opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964. For 20 minutes Paul and Maddow engaged in a less-than-graceful pas de deux on the theme of discrimination and private property rights.
Maddow asked Paul whether he believed private business people had the right to discriminate against black people, or any other minority group. Paul responded that once you allow the government to dictate how citizens can use their private property, it ceases to be private. Maddow pressed the issue, asking if the government had the right to force Woolworth’s to serve black customers at its lunch counter. Rather than say, “Yes,” Paul responded with an argument about the second amendment.
In less than an hour, candidate Paul was able to do what the Obama administration, the New York Times, and even the lying members of the Congressional Black Caucus could not do. Within minutes of the end of the interview, the blogosphere was atwitter with claims that the true goal of the Tea Party was to roll back big government in order to undo the gains of the civil rights era and return this nation to the days of “separate but equal.” And now they have the video to prove it!
Of course, believing that free people ought to have the right to do what they please with their private property does not make one a racist, neither is it an “extreme” view. I would argue that the belief that there is some inherent value in one’s race that makes one a better jurist, teacher, or more deserving of admission to college is racist.
It is interesting that those so distraught over Rand Paul’s philosophical ramblings have failed to point out the hypocrisy on the part of Progressives.
The new left is appalled--appalled!--that Paul might suggest that in a free market society that supports private property rights, a business owner has the right to decide with whom he will or will not do business. However, leftists are remarkably silent—even supportive of—community activists urging their black neighbors to “buy black;” Jewish and Islamic merchants who only buy from Jewish and Islamic venders; universities with segregated dormitories and graduation ceremonies; racial preferences in college admissions, or racially gerrymandered electoral districts.
The truth is that Paul’s argument has more merit than the mushy multi-culturalism preached on the left. In a free market, private business owners should have the right to do business with whomever they want. Freedom requires that we tolerate boorish, unpleasant, or even racist attitudes and speech. But a free market also means that consumers have the freedom to discriminate. Business owners will pay an economic price if they incorporate boorish, unpleasant, and racist attitudes into their business models. Most business owners want to be winners in the market place, so their decisions will more than likely lead them away from discriminatory policies and towards serving as many paying customers as possible.
But what if there is no free market?
What Rand Paul fails to process into his argument is that at the time the Civil Rights Act was drafted, laws not only prevented black citizens from patronizing certain businesses, those same laws also prevented white business owners from doing business with customers of their choosing. Moreover, black businessmen were not allowed access to the kind of financial capital needed to build the separate but equivalent establishments on the order of Woolworth’s and other large companies.
Paul makes the same argument that conservatives made in 1964 and thus, makes the same theoretical mistake.
In 1964 conservatives sought to protect the Constitution even as it was being torn to shreds. Conservatives cautioned against a dangerous expanse of governmental power even as those with abhorrent and anti-constitutional views used the power of government to usurp the freedoms of a portion of the citizenry. Conservatives reasoned that lasting transformation could only be had through changing hearts; pubic pressure could be brought to bear and in time white folks would remit and blacks would finally enjoy equality and freedom. Ultimately, Rand Paul’s argument fails exactly where conservatism failed. It is not up to some men to dictate to other men when they shall enjoy their God-given rights. To believe that boycotts and other forms of public pressure were by themselves going to break down the racial barriers in American society is to ignore the deafening clash of the cleanliness of theory meeting head-on with the filth of reality. Theory says that government must be limited to certain specific duties and must be vigorous in fulfilling those duties. The reality is that even a limited government must be powerful enough to perform its charge. Moreover, those within the government must have the political will to act quickly and decisively when the freedoms of any citizen are threatened.
Modern-day conservatives have recognized this error. Has Rand Paul?
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Right now I think I'd support the government if they seized all the assets of British Petroleum within the US.
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What good would that do? The accident is mainly the result of Federal regulations and an utterly misguided energy policy in the first place.
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The accident is mainly the result of Federal regulations ... You're kidding, right?
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Not at all. Government regulations prohibiting coastal drilling are what pushed oil exploration into deep water, despite the excellent safety record of coastal drilling platforms. If this well were in shallow water, it would have been capped in the first few hours after the blow out. It is the technical problem of dealing with a well head 5000 feet down that prevents capping the well now.
In addition, regulations are of no use whatsoever if they are not enforced. The government can be very selective about which regulations it enforces and when--ask anyone living along the Mexican border. If the regulations governing offshore drilling had been enforced, this accident may not have occurred, while the oil spill definitely would not have occurred.
As for energy policy, by impeding the development of known energy sources (oil, coal, gas and nuclear) in favor of unproven, uneconomical and in many cases, utterly unworkable "renewable" energy sources, the government has caused companies like British Petroleum to divert investment from improving oil exploration and extraction technology into various forms of unworkable energy (solar, wind, geothermal, etc.). BP, which also must answer to much more radical British authorities, has gone far beyond ExxonMobil or Shell in this respect, to the degradation of the safety of its operations and facilities--which is why BP has a far higher accident rate than other companies.
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Not at all. Government regulations prohibiting coastal drilling are what pushed oil exploration into deep water, despite the excellent safety record of coastal drilling platforms. If this well were in shallow water, it would have been capped in the first few hours after the blow out. It is the technical problem of dealing with a well head 5000 feet down that prevents capping the well now. Have you heard about the IXTOC oil spill from 30 years ago? The blowout at that rig was very similar to this one, but the well head was in only 160 feet of water. They tried putting a cone on it; they tried the junk shot; they tried the top kill. None of it worked. In 160 feet of water. No new methods have been developed in 30 years. The Ixtoc spill was stopped months later, by drilling two relief wells and plugging the leak with cement, exactly what is currently being planned.. In addition, regulations are of no use whatsoever if they are not enforced. ... If the regulations governing offshore drilling had been enforced, this accident may not have occurred, while the oil spill definitely would not have occurred. Read the accounts of the rig workers describing what happened on the day of the blowout. The rig technicians and the drill operators told the BP supervisor that there were problems and the drilling should stop. The BP told them to keep drilling. Government regulations and safety concerns were not factors in that decision.
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Have you heard about the IXTOC oil spill from 30 years ago? The blowout at that rig was very similar to this one, but the well head was in only 160 feet of water. They tried putting a cone on it; they tried the junk shot; they tried the top kill. None of it worked. In 160 feet of water. No new methods have been developed in 30 years. The Ixtoc spill was stopped months later, by drilling two relief wells and plugging the leak with cement, exactly what is currently being planned.. Since that time, a number of automatic cut-off systems were developed and tested; they work, but not if some nimrod forgets to replace the batteries that operate it. Read the accounts of the rig workers describing what happened on the day of the blowout. The rig technicians and the drill operators told the BP supervisor that there were problems and the drilling should stop. The BP told them to keep drilling. Government regulations and safety concerns were not factors in that decision . I have read the accounts, and it is clear that the government oversight agency knew about the problems and ignored them. Kind of like the way the Army Corps of Engineers knew the levees in New Orleans were inadequate (heck, they designed and built them) but ignored the danger. In my experience, government is really good for just two things--collecting taxes and blowing up things (and these two are not unrelated). In every other sphere of endeavor, government is incompetent at best and maliciously incompetent at worst. As Suskind's Law states, "Every problem begins as a solution".
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Za myr z'wysot ... Member
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Za myr z'wysot ... Member
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I have read the accounts, and it is clear that the government oversight agency knew about the problems and ignored them. Kind of like the way the Army Corps of Engineers knew the levees in New Orleans were inadequate (heck, they designed and built them) but ignored the danger. So, the government was involved here as well--no big surprise there! The strength of our country lies in the separation of powers, not only between state and federal governments and within the various branches of each, but--very importantly--between government and the "private sector" (a.k.a. "big business") and even between government and the Church (as well as civic organizations, foundations, etc.). All of these work most effectively--i.e. they're most likely to work for the common interest--when they're kept separate. Obviously, in this case, the government oversight agency that "knew about the problems and ignored them" was either incompetent (not likely) or they had some reason for acting incompetently. The possible reasons are numerous, but they all involve some kind of exchange--or promise to exchange (or implied promise to exchange)--money (or something equivalent thereunto). It's as simple as that. As Sirach wrote, "there's nothing new under the sun." But, none of this invalidates the existence of either oversight agencies or government per se. In my experience, government is really good for just two things--collecting taxes and blowing up things (and these two are not unrelated). In every other sphere of endeavor, government is incompetent at best and maliciously incompetent at worst. Stuart, what you're advocating here is anarchy--an idea the Church has never endorsed. Do you really believe that?  Peace, Deacon Richard
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