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Dear David,

Yes, I would agree with you - I believe you are totally correct.

The Ruthenian Church of Kyiv was not the "Ukrainian Church of Kyiv" even though Ukies figured prominently in it.

It embraced all sorts of national groups, including Lithuanian Slavs, Hungarians and later Siberians and others.

I like the term "Ruthenian" because it is a good description of the various East Slavic and other groups that formed the Church of Kyiv.

It is, to be sure, a "construct" that embraces all East Slavs, including, as well, all those for whom Kyiv is their Mother Church (e.g. Peter Mohyla, a Moldavian).

Today, the term refers to the Carpathian-Rusyns. And Carpathian Rusyns are certainly "Ruthenians."

But so am I. And perhaps you too? Within the pale of what is "Ruthenian" there are several "sub-identities" of which Ukrainian is also one.

It is really a generic term that embraces more than one cabbage roll-chomper.

Alex

Yes Alex, I guess I can agree with you but I can not call myself Ruthenian as my ancestors did not call themselves that.

As for the Churches name, our church calls itself the Byzantine Catholic Church.


David

As in The Byzantine Catholic Church, Ukrainians, Melkites, Romanians and Russians be damned (even though many of their parishes also use the term "Byzantine Catholic" in their names?).

David,

Don't forget St Moses the Hungarian of the Kyivan Caves Lavra!

He was of the Kyivan Church - and a Ruthenian in the broad sense too.

If you want to be adopted as a Ruthenian, there is an on-line ceremony that I can walk you through.

If you don't mind kissing your computer mouse three times while kneeling . . .

Alex

Now your just being diffcult. If you wish to raise a stink do so with the Metropolitan and the Bishops.

If you will look what you quoted from me, I said the it is you who capitalized the word the there by giving a different meaning to what I said.

I said the Byzantine Catholic Church, this is no way means that it is the only one. You changed it to The Byzantine Catholic Church, which changes the meaning to the only one.

You are wrong here and are now creating slights where none exist so I think I will end my replying to you now as all you seem to wish to do is fight.


David

I might be willing to try that, but I use one of the roller-ball types!

Does that qualify as a sub-category of "mouse" or a completely separate category of "roller-ball"?

Michael

If I'm not mistaken one of the issues that was discussed at the Ukrainian Greek Catholic synod was "The official name of the church".
For some reason they still haven't come to a conclusion and the issue will be taken up again next year. At the moment the offical name is still the UGCC, but maybe they'll adopt "The Byzantine Catholic Church" as the official name.
What do you guys say to that.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

I think what could happen, as already has happened, is that L'viv will call itself one thing and the diaspora, if it doesn't like, will continue to call itself whatever it likes.

Unless you are a Basilian . . .

You might want to contact the ROCOR in Brazil.

They might have some Studites they might be willing to part with . . .

Alex

Good!

How about: "Byzantine Catholic Church - Kyivan Patriarchate" ?

I think we need to address this excellant post. It really does address the question of the hour.

Shouldn't we be reviewing these issues in light of our own situation?

Are there places where it would make sense to combine resources for a healthier church?

What is our model?

Dear Coalesco,
I like it.
Lauro

Coalesco,

Thank you.

Joe

Many historians are also drawing attention to the artificiality of the term "Byzantine" in referring to the Romans in the East. Some even considered it a Carolingian deception.

So does that make us the True Roman Catholics of New Rome?

You can call me anything you want, but just don't call me late for dinner! :p

Joe

Michael,

I found the detour rather strange as well. As a convert I'd rather see all of the Eastern Catholic Churches unite so we don't dry up on the vine and blow away. I can see it now, David stands in an empty room proclaiming the virtues of the vs. The or Rusyn vs. Ruthenian.

Anyway, from what I hear there are several congregations especially in Pa. that need to merge. So what's keeping us from doing it?

Dan Lauffer

Dear Alex,
You know, sometimes I feel like I'm losing hope.
Lauro