www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?

I'm curious to learn what posters have to say about the proposal that a mosque be constructed at or near Ground Zero.

From what I've heard, the imam in charge of the project has stated publicly that he supports Hamas and similar groups that the US Government recognizes as terrorist--so much for his claims to be a peace-loving Muslim who "only wants to do this as a way of showing the victory of peace," or something like that.

I heard a spokeswoman for the group on TV last week, and it was clear she had American PC rhetoric down pat. (It seems to be working--many who would otherwise have opposed this are now strongly supporting it.)

I think that it is a bad and insensitive idea...

Sure, on the outside it isn't, as it can be a symbol of peace between religions, etc., but in reality, many mosques are hotbeds and recruit centers of militant jihad, and everyone knows that.

Build it somewhere else.

A mosque on the site of Ground Zero in New York? Sure - as soon as Christians are made welcome to build churches (at our own expense) and hold divine services in Saudi Arabia.

Fr. Serge

Here is a link from today's Fox News on a debate about an ad against the mega mosque which will be going onto NYC buses next week.

I don't agree with the proponent of banning the ad, who happens to be the daughter of members of my church.

click here [beforeitsnews.com]

In general, my NYC friends -- including many who were just blocks away from the WTC on 9/11 -- are not terribly upset by the proposed mosque and think the national media is making too big a deal of it.

Had the disastrous attack of 9/11 only affected New York City (and I'm a native New Yorker myself), I might agree that New Yorkers should decide the issue. To our great grief, however, the attack occurred in other places at the same time, which makes the matter one of legitimate national interest.

Fr. Serge

It would be one thing if the members of this mosque were labeled as terrorists, but they are not. The Imam, is currently making and has previously made trip to Muslim countries on behalf of the US State Dept.

I wonder, and why name it “Cordoba House”? The Caliphate of Cordoba was an allegedly golden age in Spain, when people of many religions lived prosperously and harmoniously together, yet one where Jews and Christians were in 'dhimmitude'

(dhimmitude means: Subordinate status of Christians and Jews under traditional Muslim rule -- couldn't ride a horse, couldnt repair places of worship, etc. )

In the name of liberal thought and democracy, some Americans are being very shortsighted and naive. The name of this house is utterly offensive and is, imho, a great big warning sign. I have no problem with mosques, (though I am suspicious of their dual nature as evidenced in the recruiting aspect of them in the London terror strikes), but there is plenty of land in NYC where they could build one. INFACT, they already had a beautiful one in the upper 90's on the East Side...why are they moving to downtown, which is less accessible than the upper East Side?!? Also, from what I read, the have a very small fraction of what this 'mega mosque' is going to cost--prompting suspicion that Saudi Arabia is probably giving them the rest of the money.

So, as Father Serge says: Allow churches in Saudi Arabia in return!!!!

The question is a difficult one. Our Constitutional Freedom of Religion would guarantee all peoples the freedom to worship as they choose, building their own houses of worship as they please (subject to reasonable regulations on location and building codes, etc.).

But having the right to do something does not mean it is the right thing to do. In the 1980s some Carmelite nuns set up shop at Auschwitz. Their intentions were honorable since many Christians were murdered there together with Jews. But the Jews took offense at them setting up shop at what has become a major memorial for them. Pope John Paul II eventually acknowledged their right to be there but asked them to move as it was not the right thing to do. [William McGurran had a good article on this recently in the WSJ: WTC Mosque, Meet the Auschwitz Nuns [online.wsj.com]]. I'd say on that basis alone they should move the location of the mosque a few blocks away from ground zero.

But there is another issue that the West needs to wrestle with. Islam is not just a religion but it is also a political movement. While most Moslems are peaceful people the religion of Islam has a goal of establishing a worldwide caliphate in which Christians, Jews and all non-Muslims are, at best, second class and pay taxes to them for permission to live.

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf's group to raise $100 million to build the Ground Zero Mosque is called the Cordova Iniative (a registered charity in NY). The title was purposefully chosen as a symbolic remembrance of when Islamic armies took Spain and use the Cathedral in Cordoba as its prize. Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf, president of the Cordoba Initiative, called for Islamic dawa and sharia law to replace the U.S. Constitution. When in Islamic countries he speaks openly of "Ground Zero, the site of the rebirth of Islam’s holy war in the West." In the Islamic countries the Ground Zero Mosque is seen as a symbol of victory, a symbol of Islam replacing the decadent Twin Towers just like the taking of the Cordoba Cathedral was a symbol of victory of Islam over Christian Spain. In America, when speaking English, however, he very much moderates his words. [Tony Vega has an article on this in the Washington Examiner: The Cordoba Initiative mosque near Ground Zero [examiner.com]].

There are now a number of successes of pushing Sharia in the U.S. In NJ just recently a judge dismissed a charge against a man for raping his wife (since under Sharia she is his property and he can do whatever he wants with her). In Detroit, Evangelical Christians who gathered across the street from a mosque to witness Christ and distribute literature were arrested and were told not to do so again (again they had appealed to Sharia). And just north of the border in Canada a mother who was convicted of murdering her daughter was given no jail time because she had a right to kill her daughter under Sharia.

That the State Department is paying Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf to go fundraising in the Islamic world to establish a Ground Zero center for the waging of a jihad to conquer America for Islam is unacceptable.

I ain't keen on the proposal, either. In fact, the little icon up in the left-hand corner of this post indicates everything I think about Islam.

Spasi nas, Hospody.

Dear John,

Thanks for expanding so brilliantly on the meaning of the title 'Cordoba' to Islam.

I urge everyone to read John's absolutely brilliant post. Ignorance is not bliss.


--Alice

JOHN:

Under what pretexts are these judges doing this? Our laws don't support these breaches of justice. Sharia should have absolutely no standing in our courts.

BOB

I thought the above claim that our courts are enforcing Sharia to be a bit over-the-top so I dug into it.. the first judge's mistaken opinion was quickly overturned:

http://freethinker.co.uk/2010/07/27...2%80%93-but-gets-short-shrift-on-appeal/

Canadian courts are not enforcing Sharia either:
http://guyanafriends.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/860604972/m/240101305

John is very right about this, and this is where Americans,(motivated by the nobility of Western democratic values) are being foolish and naive.

In the Middle East, unlike America, to 'triumph' is a very important thing.

Michael,

Actually, it's not over the top. It is a very sad day when a higher court has to over rule a lower court's decision that respected sharia. That a lower court rule with any respect to sharia is scary.

As for the Canadian case, the defense lawyer was smart enough to plead not sharia but PTSD. There are other cases both here and in Canada, not to mention that parts of London and Paris are in fact unofficially ruled by sharia.

I know I won't convince you of anything. But I do recommend you read first hand abotu the Cordoba Initiative. There is no lack of evidence that the goal of Islam is to establish a world wide caliphate and to make Christians subservient. The Isalmists are quite open about it. There is a lot of good information on respected websites (do a Google search on "sharia united states" or "sharia canada" etc.).

John

I don't disagree with you that there are extremists (Wahabists) in Islam who which to impose Sharia, etc.. (just as there are extremist protestants which want the government to impose evangelical values) but to say our courts are supporting this is a little conspiratorial in my opinion... I agree with you that the lower court judge was misguided, but her ruling wasn't that the man was cleared because of Sharia, but that the man's action was lacking mens rea - this is due to the judge's secular/relativistic worldview, which lacks the perspective that we hold as Orthodox Catholics- that all human beings belong to the natural order and are therefore subject to 'natural law' (and/or Divine Law), and that this natural law is intrinsic within our makeup.

And there is this...


http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/08/g...round-zero-church-in-limbo.html#comments

Frankly I find any attempt to compare fundamentalist Christians to fundamentalist Islamists in this case Wahabists more than a little distasteful.

I am sure you aren't implying that fundamentalist protestants pose the same threat to our country as Islamist radicals do, are you?

That aside, the building of a mosque at ground zero would be akin to building a monument to the fallen Kamikaze at Pearl Harbor.

As in the "faith" of these terrorists, anyone who does not believe as they do, are considered "infidels." With that in mind, how could we possibly allow these individuals to build anywhere near Ground Zero. I live outside of D.C., and believe me, although it was not nearly as horrific as the tragedy in N.Y., to see the Pentagon hit, burning, knowing people there .... well, it is very upsetting and brings back those memories. And, now we are considering these people, who consider us "infidels" to build their Mosque, knowing full well how we are viewed and their intent on changing everyone to their way of "faith?"
How absurd.
abby

Why not rebuild the Orthodox Church that was there first. Then worry about other proposed sites. Chad

What happened is an act of war, gained by a Islamic organization. They thought, they planned, they had no boundary, they succeeded, America lost at home, simply as Good day. And it is only the beginning.

They triumphed and now have a good example. They know that it is possible. And they will use any weapon. Without mercy.

I do not agree any political correctness. Perhaps the USA must do a smarter foreign politics for long term. What happens now only weakens America.

The situation with Muslims in the United States right now is very similar to that of Gays: they've succeeded in posturing themselves into a de facto "protected minority" status. (This is actually more effective than a de jure status, since nobody can take it away because nobody is really sure how they got it in the first place.)

I heard some quotes from President Obama yesterday on the radio. In the first one, he emphasized the "religious freedom" aspect, acknowledging only that the location was a "sensitive issue" for the families of the victims of 9-11 (only for their families?). In the second one, he "explained" what he meant in the first quote, emphsizing that he had questioned the "widsom" of the chosen location.

"Wisdom" is a serious understatement. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf's group chose this location deliberately, clearly intending to send a message to the world--one of Islamic victory. It's hard for me to see how just a few verbal reassurances from Imam Rauf can make a whole country think he's their friend.

Let us not forget that Muslim imams have long been pointing to the decadence of Western culture as proof of the "failure" of Christianity ...

Does anyone know the status of St Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, that was destroyed on 9-11 ?

I am not clear on what the opponents of the proposed mosque/cultural center are proposing. Since, as I understand it, the structure will be located about two blocks away and out of sight of the twin-towers site, how is "ground zero" being defined. Would there be objections to a mosque/cultural center being constructed six or eight blocks away? Elsewhere in lower Manhattan? Elsewhere in the five boroughs? If these expansive definitions were applied, what would become of mosques/cultural centers already built and operating in NYC? How would this principle be applied in the Washington, DC/Northern Virgnia area?

Slava Isusu Christu!

The State should protect the right of religious groups to build centers of religious practice, temples, churches, synagogues, Masjids, etc. Islam is not a monolithic religion. It is split into over a hundred sects and even in the sects imams and Muslims have differing opinions about Quranic doctrine, Islamic jurisprudence, fatwahs, rulings, commentary on Hadith, etc. They should be allowed to build and the government should also monitor their activities. This is a good compromise.

Islam holds to the notion that religion should be defended and propagated by the sword, just as Christianity was also spread with the sword and effectively used the power of the State to suppress other groups and dissidents. In the 21st Century religion is seen as a pacifist ideology or something for those who seek the abolition of warfare and all fighting, when clearly this is not either the traditional Catholic, Orthodox, or Jewish teaching. Islamic Scholars have said that Mohammad received his notion of Jihad actually from the Hebrew Scriptures and from Jews he had encountered aside from revelations to take up arms in the Cause of Allah which he received from Jibril or Gabriel. For those who long for the restoration of the State Church and the Emperor, there should be a recognition that the pluralism we enjoy would be subject to scrutiny or abolition as in an Islamic state under Sharia law. The Law of God and the State would be one and inter-connected.

I am grateful for the change of social doctrine within Christianity, particularly Catholicism, to one which upholds democracy and religious freedom--a reality which does not exist in the tradition, especially the Papal tradition in which "error has no rights." Vatican II was a blessing in abrogating that notion. Islam has no Pope or Emperor as with Protestantism, Old Calendar Orthodoxy, Old Catholicism or the numerous Protestant and Evangelical groups in which to fix the problem of dis-unity and have true reform at a worldwide level. This makes the problem of excluding an Islamic group from building a Mosque or Masjid even greater. Punishing this group for its possible extremist tendencies also punishes other Muslim groups from building in the area, like the Ahmadiis who are a pacifist Islamic sect, which is not recognized by most Sunni or Shia Muslim leaders, who may be thrown in with the stereotype that all Muslims are warmongers and Jihadists.

I say let the Mosque be built and hopefully it will help re-build the community there in a positive way. Along with that let the State inform them that they will be monitored accordingly, not at the expense of religious expression, but for the safety of all people in the area and nationally. That is just the 21st Century--all Churches are being subjugated to State investigation including the Catholic Church--so there is no discrimination in that regard.

Contrariwise, I can see the side of the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim families who object to the building of the Masjid. And it is a political statement to build a Mosque in that area of NY City. It appears they are trying to get the government to discriminate against them so they can sue them and take it to the Supreme Court so as to protect definitely the rights of Muslims from discrimination in the future and thereby prepare for Sharia Jurisprudence to be made legal as an alternative to our current Judicial system. This is a very strategic action on their part and now with the support of Obama, they have a better case if they take this to court.

These are deep questions and very sensitive ones; and we thought questions of religious freedom were already dealt with--yeah right!

In Christ,


Robert

St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church should be rebuilt at Ground Zero!

see the status here [foxnews.com]

NEWS REPORTS ON REBUILDING OF ST. NICHOLAS CHURCH AT GROUND ZERO

NEW YORK – Fox News Channel will broadcast numerous times today, August 18, 2010, a report on the stalled negotiations between the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America and the Port Authority of NY and NJ for a proper location for the rebuilding of St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church. St. Nicholas Church was destroyed on September 11, 2001 when the South Tower of the World Trade Center came crashing down on it.

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese has responded to the national news networks that have reached out requesting more information on the reasons for the delay in rebuilding the Church.

To find links to news broadcasts, to learn more about St. Nicholas Church at Ground Zero, or to donate for the rebuilding click on to www.goarch.org [goarch.org] or text REBUILD to 27722 and $10 will be added to your mobile phone bill and it will be earmarked for the St. Nicholas rebuilding.

St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church was founded in 1916 by a group of Greek immigrants. It held worship services since its founding until the World Trade Center’s South Tower crumbled on top of it, destroying the building in its entirely. Only a few artifacts were found at the recovery site, including an icon of St. Dionysios, three wax candles intertwined and a bell used in the church.

Amen to that. Want to place a bet on the chances it will happen? Maybe we could start a pool . . .

With the subtle and not-so-subtle anti-Christian atmosphere and attitudes in the general culture, my bet says there is a mosque in lower Manhattan long after the memory of St. Nicholas Church fades into history. Sad.

Bob

Although I missed it, it seems that Fox cable news was broadcasting their plight all day yesterday.

Did anyone see it? If so, could you share?

They were showing where the city/state whoever, is building an underground parking facility Or something of the such. Seems they have basically stolen their property.

Sorry to be negative, but why am I not surprised?

Bob

In my observations I noticed this is a good example of how Islam plans to take control over time. They are taking advantage and exposing our rights and laws and using them against us.

The right to free speach. The right to religous freedom, the right to this or that. They come in and proclaim their right and use it to rub their "rights" in our face.

There is a fine line between granting rights and doing what is right. When one is ignored, the other will end up favoring only one side.

This is evident in many things this administration is and has forced in the name of "doing th eright thing". Healthcare Reform is one example in my opinion. Sure they claim it is the right thing to do, but ignore one's right not to be forced to be part of a business or system.

Watch how true this is contraversal item after contraversal item.

God be with us all!