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Dear Diak,

I am sorry that I have been the cause of sadness for you!

The ideas advanced here have left my stomach twisted in knots and I'm trying to make sense of it all.

Again, I think many of our people and clergy would say the same as I - and even much more stronger things. And I think you and others who agree with you know that.

What I said above regarding the smells and the bells is not to say what you interpret it as saying.

It is to say that there are truly conflicting loyalties here, one to the Ukrainian Church with all that implies, another to the beauty of the Eastern liturgy and the desire to find it outside that Church etc.

What I mean to say is that liturgy as an expression of spiritual culture cannot be considered outside its ecclesial context.

I and others have a problem with any member of our Church who esteem an ecclesial context that has, throughout its entire history, been against our Church and people, their independence and right to control their own destiny.

We sometimes don't buy products from countries that practice outright oppression.

And the ROCOR is very much like that. It is ideologically Russophile in the imperialist sense. That they are White rather than Red makes not one bit of difference.

And they are anti-Catholic as well. Theirs is the Russian tradition and if one loves it - that is fine.

All I'm saying is - please be true to a consistent loyalty throughout.

I was once quite serious about joining the ROCOR myself and went through a "dark night of the soul."

Ultimately, one cannot serve two masters.

But I've obviously offended you and I only wished to comment on the ideas presented here.

But I cannot bring myself to change my view of this.

I too could take offense from the points made above that suggested bad motives behind my position.

My position is that of our Church and people.

If I offend you, they will too.

Perhaps I don't understand all there is to understand about this subject - you are my teacher on liturgy and theology, I am not yours.

But I know what is Ukrainian and what is not.

And I think I believe as all Ukies do on the subject of loyalties.

I am NOT questioning YOUR loyalties - I'm only making a general statement in this regard and I know it can be wrong.

God bless and forgive me a sinner.

Alex

Dear Administrator,

If I have, in any way, given offense here, I am truly penitent for it!

I leave it to your judgement since I cannot bring myself to change my views at this time.

But if you feel I have broken any rules of discourse here, I don't mind being chastened by you for the sake of Diak and others that I love and esteem here.

But please be gentle . . .

Alex

Dear All:

I probably have no right to jump in at this point, so please forgive me.

Those of us who are children and grand children of post-WWII immigrants from Western Ukraine cannot help but have some ill feelings and trepidation when we approach things "Russian."

Our grandparents gave greatly of themselves to build instutions and maintain an enviromnet that would keep our Ukrainian culture and language alive in the face of its being "stamped out" by the Soviet regime. Even in the post-Soviet era, there is much work left to be done to rpair a nation that is both spiritually and economically wounded.

Anyway, such was the environment in which we grep up. We were instilled with a sence that Russia consiered itself the "big brother" of the Ukrainian nation and felt that everything from the Carpathian mountains east should be subject to its control both in matters of the Church and State. The actions of the Russian Orthodox Church appear to confirm that it subscribes to this point of view to this very day.

Now, I don't know how the ROCOR views us Ukrainian "uniates." I have no idea what Ilya told them or did not tell them when he enrolled in their music school. Frankly, I don't care.

What is important is that those of us who believe in and fight for the rights of the Ukrainian nation and its Church is to be true to ourselves.

As Alex says, if you believe that this "Ukie stuff" is not important and you can find a liturgical home for yourself that suits you better, fine.

But, if one considers himself a defender of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church and the self-determination of the Ukrainian nation and State, by freely associating and going back and forth between Ukrainian and Russian chruces, that same person only lends credence to the arguments that being Ukrainian is only a "state of mind."

Love your enemy and pray for him, yes. But do not give him annunition to destroy your own Church.

Yours,

kl

Dear Friends:

Nothing was hidden from those conducting the cantors� course at Jordanville.

The boys we very upfront about membership in their Church.

There were no real issues with anyone.

The kids were taught religious music history, theory, practice, and Slavonics.

They had a great time and their presence was appreciated by all participants.

I myself am pleased with the outcome because I and our other parishioners financially sponsored their trip.


defreitas

I would hope that nobody has taken offense at what Alex has written. But one may take issue without taking offense. It is entirely possible to appreciate the genuine merits of the Church Abroad (as exemplified by the monastery) without endorsing any particular political baggage. Still more to the point, one may disagree with some or all of the political baggage without treating the Church Abroad like pariahs. Precisely the same applies to the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church and any number of other ecclesiastical bodies. But as to those two Churches in particular, we absolutely may not believe that God has condemned these two Churches to hate one another. As to political baggage, I have plenty of my own, thanks! Hope I've not offended Alex or anyone else; that is certainly not my intention. Incognitus

Dear Alex,

I think the Ukrainians that are very fraternal and flock to ROCOR traditions, pratices, music, etc., just don't let what happened in Ukraine keep them from venturing to other Eastern churches for pure liturgics or whatever. I am under the impression that they do not care about Ukrainian politics or the struggle because it doesn't directly affect them because they are American or Canadian born.

If they want to be ROCOR members or
Tsarists, let them, more power to them. If they love everything ROCOR, all power to them.

I was in San Francisco last year or so and we went to the ROCOR Cathedral and bookstore and we were kindly recieved and we were given no gruff for speaking in the Little Russian dialect or for admitting we attend the Little Russian church.

ROCOR has gone through a struggle of their own and they are doing well and are gaining converts from all walks of life and I don't see the UGCC doing well in that field.

Unfourtantly, wounds still run deep in our hromada and will for a long time. I persnally have nothing to do with any Russian church and it will stay as such...

...but what I am trying to say is that old country politics don't matter to some because we aren't in the old country and that they grow from these churches so you know what, more power to them.

I personally love old country politics so I will still hate all things Russian :p (just kidding)

-uc

You know this is one of the problems that we are having here in Brazil. The majority of the Ukies down here are 3rd to 5th generation Ukrainians and believe it or not we have some really "intelligent" priests down here that say that we shouldn't worry about Ukie politics or of what's happening in the old country. The conclusion to this is that they're forgetting who they are and some of them even say that being Polish or Ukrainian is the same thing. We don't have many Russians down here and I thank God for that because I would have to start fighting at two front lines. Now I have nothing against the Russian Orthodox people but they aren't Ukrainians,they are a different family, they may be related to us but they are different.And if any Russkie tells me that I'm from MaloRus or that I speak some kind of inferior language, he's going to swallow some teeth.
I'm sorry if I'm being agressive but at least I'm sincere.
Lauro

Dear Friends,

I wanted to thank all those who disagree with me for their cordiality and dispassionate assessment of these issues and my own position!

I certainly take no issue with the study of liturgics or iconography or other subjects in whichever Church we feel does it best.

It may be hard to believe, but I have many, many Jordanville publications, I've corresponded with Jordanville monks, I've had wonderful visits there and a former employer was a most pious member of the ROCOR (he wanted me to be a ROCOR priest and almost had my wife convinced, believe it or not!).

When it comes to unadulterated liturgical practice in the ROCOR, "nobody does it better" to be sure.

Having said all that, please, please understand the flip side of this coin!

I've known too many of our Eastern Catholic priests who suffered the "slings and arrows of outrageous" misfortune from our people for a) being too Eastern and/or b) indiscretions such as open associations with ROCOR et al.

The fear of Russification and its memory is too fresh in our minds.

It really has less to do with "hatred" but with being who we are, ecclesially, liturgically and culturally.

I'm only trying to get across what I think is the straightforward idea that we have to be CAREFUL in this department.

I wouldn't flaunt my Jordanville icon of All Saints of Russia or of the New Martyrs of Russia around in my community.

I cherish both!

But I wouldn't flaunt them. And there's a good reason for that!

Am I being silly? Spiteful? Hateful? If I am, and you think so, O.K. - I can accept that!

But I don't think so. And I think that because one's immediate parish or seminary or other immediate context would allow for what we are talking about - that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be problematic in our wider community - and it would be, and you don't need me to tell you that.

And what I don't understand, can you help me here, is that the very persons who are into this are also the ones who have had difficulties with our people in the church in the past.

This is about pastoral sensitivity and I am not a pastor.

In addition, do we need to be associated, let me put it to you again, with a church that is not of our tradition, that represents something very negative toward our Greek Catholic Church and our nationality?

If you don't see that ROCOR does represent something negative toward these things - then just let's forget it, I won't be able to convince you.

And if a parish did sponsor the trip down there - for heavens' sake keep it to yourself, for cryin' out loud!

Fr. Bohdan Lypsky, as you all know, esteemed ROCOR highly, used their publications and icons and even hired two icon-writers from that church to do the iconography of St Nicholas, I believe.

That's fine! That's fine!

And I'm not saying I know everything with respect to where the fine lines are to be drawn.

I don't! I react to these things in my gut as an EC and a Ukie, first and foremost.

I leave it to you, educated and trained in the study of these subjects, to do what you do.

I'm speaking on behalf of "our people" and also by way of "covering asses" in this respect.

I don't want to see people angry at people like you! Does that serve any purpose?

So I say what I say.

I don't expect you to agree with me. And if you don't, I don't take it as a slight.

I don't believe I'm absolutely correct and, again, I don't know where you draw the line.

But openly attending seminars with the ROCOR Russkies is something that, if made public knowledge in our church and community, is really going to piss a lot of people off.

And I, for one, don't want to see people pissed off - and I don't want them to be pissed off at you.

You don't deserve that, Diak especially doesn't deserve that and neither do I & D here.

Better you hear it from me than from our dear people.

Our people are a tad less nice about it than I.

You can believe me on that, if on nothing else.

Alex

Dear UC,

"Old Country" politics is still very much alive in the ROCOR and in our community.

If you think it was left in the old country, have another look at them - and us, Big Guy!

Have a look at the comments of Met. Ohienko in "The Holy Lavra of Pochaiv."

Alex

Dear Lauro,

I agree and if it came to ANY other nationality or Church, other than us Ukies, that nationality would have nothing to do with another group whose official, unrepentant line is as ROCOR says.

My stomach is taking over when I read some of the comments coming from Ukies on this thread.

But the point is that anyone training to be a Ukrainian priest or cantor and doesn't have some basic background on these issues, old world or not, is going to get EATEN UP ALIVE when they get "out there" into the world of Ukie church life.

Unless, of course, they get a parish that thinks as they do!

Alex

Pan Doktor Alex,

I know they are still alive in the hromada and I am very involved and connected politically.

What i was trying to say in my confusing post was that some others feel that old country politics don't or shouldn't apply to them because we are in the new world, not back in Tsarist or Soviet-era.

Do't get me wrong, I am as staunch as they come- I am the only uke here that has my nationality in my screenname!

A lot of the comments from "nashi" do bother me but whenever have us ukes been all on the same page??

-uc

Dear UC,

I understand your point - and it is entirely accurate!

What I'm talking about is avoiding pissing our people off by associating with ROCOR.

That has less to do with "old world politics" - that I agree is dying a natural death - but with Ukrainian awareness of their own history.

The FACT is that a lot of our people see this equation: "Eastern Christianity = tendency toward Russification."

From a pastoral perspective, and I'm not a pastor, why do we want to add fuel to the fire in this respect?

Why would we want to run the risk of alienating people in this respect?

Diak suggested at some point that I'm causing trouble here.

And I'm sorry about that.

So you guys tell me where I am wrong. More to the point, forget about me, I'm not the issue here.

That issue is our people and what they think and how they would react.

I mentioned the ROCOR trip to some Ukie friends - who will keep it to themselves, I promise you - and they were literally HORRIFIED!

And one reason I would suggest why we haven't sung from the same hymnbook as a Church is precisely because of "initiatives" that some take upon themselves such as illustrated here.

We know what "Ukrainian loyalty" involves. We all really do.

I would suggest that those who still think I'm out to lunch and crazy take this matter up with your local priests, bishop and people.

If you have the stomach.

My stomach has given out - I'm outta here.

Alex

Wasn't this the same fear of good Protestant members of the Church of England towards the Oxford Movement?

"Becoming more Catholic= Going to Rome"

and maybe just as irrational??


The most definitely Un-Ukie Idiot,

Brian Seraphim

Brain,

That is how our people think, so it still doesn't make it true.

There is a deep, internal fear of anything Russian because any compromise or anything Russian goes against _the cause_ for which many people died. They cannot help it. It runs deep.

But places like Sts. V&O and St. Nicholas in Chicago and everyone's favorite St. Elias are good examples of being Eastern but not being _Russified_ (at least I don't think so for St. Elias, I have yet to visit there.)

It's hard to understand for an outsider, but it's just the way we are.

Dear Brian,

You don't have to be Ukrainian to call us "irrational."

But you perhaps should have "been there" or at least read something about Ukrainian history from a non-Russian perspective. But forget about even this - get it from the horse's mouth!

I've come across a number of non-Russian converts to Russian Orthodoxy, and I'm not saying you are one of them, who evince anti-Ukrainianism and anti-Eastern Catholicism along with their confession of Orthodoxy.

That fact, for me, is the ultimate indication concerning the issue we are currently talking about.

Alex