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#35248 07/24/03 08:20 PM
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Alex,

i'm sorry. I did not mean to offend. It was not my place to enter into this thread.

#35249 07/24/03 08:29 PM
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My dear Brother in Christ, Brian,

You did not offend.

I was the one who offended many on this thread.

God bless you!

Alex

#35250 07/24/03 08:31 PM
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Dear Brian:

The only problem is, you're right.

I can speak for myself and say that within me dwell equally strong (and, yes, probably irrational) fears of Russification AND Latinization. It's there, it's part of my up-brining and will always be part of the baggage I, and I assume many other North Americans of Ukrainian decent, will always carry.

We Ukies are not at home in the Latin Church, and we're not at home in the Church of Moscow (who took their Christianity from Kyiv).

Yours,

kl

#35251 07/24/03 08:36 PM
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Dear ukrainiancatholic:

By no means do I mean to put words in your mouth, but I think you meant to say St. Nick's in Toronto, not Chicago. St. Nick's Cathederal in Chicago still has its Stations of the Cross up. eek

Still, your point is very well taken. We CAN be Eastern without being Russian. Our people are learning this i think, albeit slowly.

Yours,

kl

#35252 07/24/03 08:37 PM
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I meant Toronto! How could I forget! I was there 2 months ago.

#35253 07/24/03 08:37 PM
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I love how you guys spell it Kyiv. I had a buddy who was in the Marines as an embassy guard in what I called "Kiev," and he corrected me on that point.
Long live Kyiv--or Kyib.

The one who knows nothing about what's being discussed here,
LatinTrad

#35254 07/24/03 08:40 PM
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Keiv is Russian and most commonly used in the west.

Kyiv is proper Ukrainian and it's official title.

-uc

#35255 07/24/03 08:41 PM
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Dear u-c:

Just here to help. biggrin wink

Yours,

kl

#35256 07/24/03 08:42 PM
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Dear Friends,

So could someone tell the good people at Holy Spirit Seminary in Ottawa to stop using "Kiev" in their journal?

Alex

#35257 07/24/03 08:47 PM
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You tell em, Alex!! Give what-for! :p :p

#35258 07/24/03 09:38 PM
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I must confess to being a bit puzzled....

It seems to me that no one is denying the suffering of the Ukrainian nation or the rights of our Church and people to worship in the way that God appointed.

No one is betraying Ukraine's new found freedom to Imperialist or Soviet powers.

No one is submitting themselves to the yoke or omophor of any Patriarchs, Archbishops or Hierarchs foreign to Rus'Ukraine.

No one is advocating the imposition of non Kyivan liturgics developed after the Uniya by other liturgical centres.

No one is...etc.

From what I can tell, the guy just went there to take a summer course in conducting music and Old Slavonic. With the Parish's blessing and the parishioners prayers and financial contribution.

Apparently he is NOT converting to ROCOR or MP or anything but is a loyal member in good standing (at least canonically) of the UGCC.

That he went to this place, plainly saying who and what he was, is a good thing, seems to me.

That he was accepted with charity and friendliness, as being UGCC (on his own terms and not as some sort of potential convert) by ROCOR people and institution seems to me a good thing - auguring well for inter-church relations (particularly given history and cultural biases of the ROC (abroad or not) - which have been gone into at length on this thread and which we all know and which pain and wounds we all acknowledge and bear (at least some of us) and share (I hope all of us).

I really don't see the down side. Nor am I in any position to judge Ilya's actions.

He share it with us happily. And I am happy for him. It is certainly better than continued hatred on the part of our 2 Churches - which is in no way to deny the injustice etc., etc.

It is also better than continued negative attitude on their part (i.e. not accepting any UGCCs into their course being they are Catholics and Ukrainians etc.)

It seems to me a grace filled happening, esp. as compared to some hierarchs (not ROCOR) who refer to the Pope as an "arch-heretic" (apparently).

Again, one can demurr from going to Jordanville; one can lament any continuing biases or imperialisms or cultural insensitivity; and it's totally understandable and justifiable.

But it seems to me (for what it's worth) that we can cut Ilya some slack and let him post something on the Forum just this once without going after him for it. He hasn't attacked anyone. He hasn't been uncharitable or disedifying or heretical.

It seems to me, reading his post, that he was just sharing with us some of his joy experienced in prayer and a small graced step forward in relations between Churches where feelings have been and continue to be very hard and misunderstanding and wounds (whether real or imagined) are deeply felt.

Herb

ps: I'm pretty sure Archimandrite Bob Taft SJ would not have a problem with Ilya's going.

pps: What DID happened in China? (Is there a double entendre I've missed?)

#35259 07/24/03 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by Herbigny:

.............But it seems to me (for what it's worth) that we can cut Ilya some slack and let him post something on the Forum just this once without going after him for it. He hasn't attacked anyone. He hasn't been uncharitable or disedifying or heretical.

It seems to me, reading his post, that he was just sharing with us some of his joy experienced in prayer and a small graced step forward in relations between Churches where feelings have been and continue to be very hard and misunderstanding and wounds (whether real or imagined) are deeply felt.......

Well said. This had been my feeling from the start. Ilya was tring to share the joy of his experience. He received in return a lot of unfortunate (and inapropriate) criticism.


Michael

#35260 07/24/03 09:54 PM
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Dear Guys:

By the way, the teachers loved the boy's examples of Galician chant.

JL.

#35261 07/24/03 10:07 PM
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And what I don't understand, can you help me here, is that the very persons who are into this are also the ones who have had difficulties with our people in the church in the past.
Are you pointing fingers here, Alex? When I speak to people, I usually try to be direct to those I am speaking to and not speak in insinuations or vague language. As Lauro I would quickly ask someone outside who questions the legitimacy of the UGCC and the reality of her martyrs.

But on the other hand when someone is approached for following liturgical prescriptions mandated by the Church, Patriarch Josyp, etc. and is called something negative for doing so, I don't think this automatically reflects on the ability of that person "getting along" but may also reflect on his faithful obedience to the prescriptions of the Church.

I see your mentioning of "problems with our people" rather as positive encounters or as "catechetical moments" to teach them about what they have lost and to charitably explain what direction our leaders would like them to go liturgically. If you are speaking about me, which I don't know if you are or not, "difficulties with our people" are nothing anyone who is in pastoral work or ministry amongst Ukrainian Catholics can't handle, nor are my experiences likely that different from many UGCC clergy if we compared notes.

Unfortunately some of our Ukie people have their own very narrow ideas of how the Church should be. The events precipitating the formation of Sts. Volodymyr and Olha in Chicago is testimony to that. Indeed, one in ministry should always try to work with the people. But there are sometimes realistic limitations as well.

Because the parishes divided, would you say the priests who proudly served V&O and who maintained the Julian Calendar in the face of personal threats, even physical violence as people who "couldn't get along"?. Those who started V&O were called terrible things by those two blocks north, with derogatory use of such terms as "pravoslavniy" or "muskovsky" because their priests had beards, kept the Old Calendar, wore riassas, etc.

I look to the example of my avatar, St. Leonid Federov, and pray for his constant intercession, who took the good and beautiful things from his Tsarist Russian Orthodox Church (i.e. mother church of the ROCOR), left her, and brought those treasures with him into union under the omophor of St. Andrey Sheptytsky.

I'm sure St. Andrey had his difficulties with parishoners as well as I'm sure St. Vasyl Velychkovsky did also, both of whom were faithful to their Ukrainian heritage as well as their Byzantine liturgical tradition. The battles of St. Andrey Sheptytsky against some of his bishops is very well documented in this regard. It appears I am in good company here along with Fr. Lypsky whom I also admire. I'm sure he had his detractors as well.

The priest who taught my oldest son how to serve spent years in Mordovia, yet was extremely vostochnik. Many survival and martyrdom stories have resounded in my living room. I wouldn't have made a pilgrimage to the enshrinement of the relics of St. Vasyl Velychkovsky all the way to Winnipeg if I didn't believe in what he and our Church stood for under severe Soviet persecutions or felt as if I was somehow going to convert to the narrow political agenda of some ROCOR adherents. But I am wasting my time with any personal statements since the judgement appears to have been already passed.

As in the examples here of St. Leonid Federov and your own with Fr. Bohdan Lypsky, in addition to the experience of the lads at the music camp here, we can take what is good and beautiful from the Kyivan tradition (liturgical observance, prayerbooks, etc.) without buying into any political baggage which was not initially part of the discussion at all.

Since we have lost much of our liturgical heritage, we have no choice but to look to the Orthodox for some of this reclamation of our Kyivan liturgical heritage. For me this doesn't mean buying into any ideology which would seek to marginalize or victimize Ukrainians or the UGCC. Nor was this implied or stated in any of the posts.

The tension between the latinizers and the easternizers in our church is unfortunately well known, with the latter often accused as "Russian" or "Muscovite" because of their love of the Byzantine tradition. It can be seen again here, with those who wish to be faithful to tradition being painted as Muscovite politically or somehow not part of the people.

Bishop Khomyshyn in a letter publicly denounced what he called 'Byzantinism' as a heresy on the level of Communism and a direct attack to Ukrainian identity, partly to garner sentiment to try and contradict what St. Andrey Sheptytsky was doing with his work on the Ordo Celebrationis to bring it in line with, yes, the Kyivan tradition which had been badly mangled through latinization by that time. Deja vu all over again, as Yogi Berra would say.

Herb made a beautiful post above. Why anyone would jump down Illya's throat for tapping into the beauty of the Kyivan tradition makes no sense. This thread started off as the description of a positive liturgical music experience. It quickly degenerated into insinuations and polemic.

But with regard to Kiev, I thought that was only used to describe how to make chicken... smile

#35262 07/24/03 10:31 PM
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"Kiev" is not Russian; it's Church-Slavonic. And the English language has its own vocabulary. Thus when using English we say "Moscow" rather than "Moskva", "Vienna" rather than "Wien" - or "Bec", which is how the Hungarians name that particular city and "Prague" rather than "Praha". Numerous other examples could be provided. Incognitus

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