www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Quran Burning

Drudgereport has links to several other "ministers" who will be burning Qurans tomorrow:
Westboro Baptist to Burn Quran [ocala.com]
Springfield Pastor To Burn Quran [newschannel5.com]

This can't be good for the Greek Catholics in Muslim lands. I wonder if there is anything we can do to distance ourselves in the eyes of Muslims from this "ministers"?

No

It is equally important that we distance ourselves from the secularized syncretists--including Secretary of State Clinton--who refer to the book as the "Holy" Quran.

The final two words do not belong together on the lips of a Christian!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

She's a Christian? She seemed so much just a secular humanist or something that does not really believe in any higher power than the gov't.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Because of the actions of this unbaptized heretic (a Protestant who has no part in Christ and his Church), true Christians from the East and the West will suffer brutal retaliations from Muslims.

It is extremely sad that the Vatican (as well as the other Apostolic Churches) is not emphasizing the fact that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church have nothing to do with the U.S. "Christianity" and that people around the world (and enemies of Christians in particular) regard the United States as the leading "Christian nation" while in fact the political leadership of the USA has nothing to do with Christianity but with Evangelicalism, a Protestant sect.

While I do not agree with burning the Quran, as someone who comes from a Protestant family and has many Protestant friends, I tire of the insulting and uncharitable way in which you repeatedly speak of Protestants.

Slava Isusu Christu!

The Quran should not be burned and should be respected, as a text that brought pure monotheism to most of the desert Arabs and many people in India and other lands that were polytheists, even if there are narrations in it that do not co-incide with our Sacred Text and theology.

It is a book that holds the words of God for over 1.5 billion Muslims who use its words over 5 times a day for Sunni Muslims in Salat (daily obligatory prayer), Sunni Muslims also do extra Salat besides the obligatory ones called Sunna Prayers and Witr Prayers, and 3 Salat a day for Shia, they consolidate Salat prayers. They also use Qur'an in duas (prayers) at weddings and funerals, etc. All Muslims also aspire to memorize their Holy Qur'an. It is so deep in the psyche of these people that rage and deep anger is the only answer to this and it is a deep blasphemy to them and strikes them at their core that this exceedingly Holy Text would be desecrated by Christians in America. We should condemn this action as the Vatican has already done so. In the 21st Century Christians should show Muslims respect and tolerance and try to meet Muslims and dialogue with them--even getting to know them outside of doctrinal discussions and participate in their everyday lives.

Muslims are also a part of the People of God and they journey with us to the beatific vision and are very moral and upright, and follow the Prophet Abraham through Ishmael his son thereby being united to the covenant of Abraham and also through Abraham to Noah's Covenant. I have never met a Muslim that was not pious and kind to me. I am grateful to be serving the One God with them.

I always follow the doctrine of Nostra Aetate on issues like this. I know within our tradition there is a repudiation of Muslims and Jews in their walk with God, but this is abrogated--thank God! We all are a Pilgrim People and we should respect each other.

Robert

I'd say this is about a billion times more offensive http://abcnews.go.com/US/satanist-c...center-exorcism-ritual/story?id=11524098
though I don't expect it to receive condemnation from Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, General Petraeus and others. Also, I seriously doubt anyone is concerned about it having the potential to cause violence around the world.

I agree that the tone towards Protestants many of whom are good inspiring Christian people and possibly in some mysterious way joined to Christ and his Church through Baptism and faith may have been harsher than necessary. I think though that events like this, do tend to be evidence of the need for a larger Christian body with accountability amongst a group of leaders. When one pastor of 50 people can garnish this much attention and humiliate our faith and endanger her members without anyone being able to step in from his sect, you can see that the splintering of Protestantism is an issue, because now Christ is represented by anyone who can become any kind of leader in any part of the world. Granted, there is scandal and sin in the Catholic Church and all churches even amongst the leadership, but there is also the ability for sanity to prevail (eventually), for the sinner to be corrected or made an example of and for the truth to be clarified by some Bishop or group of people that can shed light on what is official vs. what is one person's interpretation or opinion. This person seems to have too much power.
But I admit there are areas where I think many protestants shine and can teach Catholics how to excel more in. Would that we all at least grow and unite as much as possible.
As per Robert's post, I look forward to seeing what may be said, because I recognize some of it from the catechism, yet wonder if it is a tad too respectful? Granted, respect is good, but there is still a need to evangelize. It is still better according to our theology if a Moslem freely converts to Christianity (if spiritually aware of the truth of the Gospel) and I respect the one's who do often at the threat of their life. But all this to say, I agree that I have gained respect for Moslems that I have met and think that there is much we can appreciate from them as well. Though, like Christianity, (though maybe more polarized) the story is quite varied from sect to sect as we know. But yes, dialogue and even friendship are good ideas in my opinion. Burning the Koran, is a terrible idea.

ISTM that Mexican has made a great point that all of us should agree upon, be we Catholic or Orthodox or right, left or center in our politics. That being said we must be careful not to equate all American Protestants with the beliefs and actions of some. They, and we, often make the same mistake in our criticisms of each other!

Amen....but we still need to be on guard against fanatics from all sides.

Christ is in our midst!!

Does anyone see the real issue here? If the media had not made this thing into a big deal, this minister would not have even come to the attention of anyone, let alone the entire world, both Christian and Moslem.

But the secular media has made it a cause to show Christians, as well as other people of faith, as fringe people, outside the mainstream of rational beings--people to be held up to scorn and derision. Notice that they leave Moslems alone for the most part--look at how they backed off after the Danish cartoon issue became such a big deal.

IMHO, this whole thing began with the media's antipathy toward religion, especially Christianity, and is still being fanned as a way to marginalize Christians and the ifluence of Christians.

Bob

Pastor Thomas:

Christ is in our midst!!

AMEN.

Bob

I wholeheartedly concur.

And I, most emphatically, do not. I think that some of the sentiments expressed by one of our moderators are, at the least, unfitting and unfortunate. The suggestion that we Christians cannot accept that our Muslim brothers and sisters regard their Sacred Text as "Holy" and show our respect for their beliefs by using that word in referring to it is incomprehensible. I encourage everyone to re-read the Horvath post carefully.

The entire discussion, here and in the press, of the madness in Florida and the dispute over the construction of a Muslim cultural center (NOT a mosque) near (NOT "ON") the site of the World Trade Center, seems to have been long on emotion and short on respect and accuracy. For some of this the press is to blame, but for many of the most outspoken "contributors," it has appeared as if the issue is being hijacked in support of some other agenda.

It is not just "one another" that we Christians are called to love.

Glory to Jesus Christ!



Dear Tim,

In loving our enemies we do not need to call the Qur'an holy. In respecting our Muslim brothers, we do not need to call their scripture holy. We need to love and respect them for the icon of God that all of humanity is as we are all created in His image. But that does not mean that we should call holy that which is not. Words have meaning and they are powerful. As for me at least, to call something or someone holy is to have a certain reverence for it/them. I do not revere the Qur'an. But I do respect, love and pray for our Muslim brothers that they may come to revere and call holy that which is Holy.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Manuel:

I think we need to display some simple courtesy and sensitivity in speaking to or about those of other Faiths. I doubt that any of us would feel comfortable, or "respected." if another Christian, or non-Christian, refused to refer to our Liturgy as "Divine," balked at calling our Eucharist "Holy," or declined to use the term "Saint" (which means "Holy") in referring to the heroes and heroines of our Faith. I remain convinced that the posts asserting that no Believer should speak of the "Holy Koran" were narrow, bigoted, and un-Christian.

I was the first to state that it is improper for a Christian to make such referene to the Quran.

While I acknowledge that those writings are sacred to the Muslims, words which declare “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.” are not and cannot be holy to me.

Yes, there is a slim strand of commonality with this other "Abrahamic faith". But Islam simply cannot comprehend the kenosis (Divine self-emptying, cf Philippians 2:5-11) of Christ, the Son of the Living God and finds such a notion utterly abhorant.

Consider the Islamic ascriptions to Allah as "the all powerful", "the all merciful", etc---all ascriptions to a divine being who exerts raw power. All commonality ceases with the Incarnation.

...There are many Christians of certain Protestant denominations who do not and will not refer to our Catholic and Orthodox saints as 'saints'.


Personally, I don't think that there really is a need to refer to the 'Koran' as 'holy' since I have never actually heard it referred to as such before by a Muslim or Christian.

The Bible is referred to as the 'holy' Bible by Christians in certain contexts, but most times, one hears it simply referred to as simply: 'the Bible'...as in "put your hands on the Bible to take an oath", "there is a Bible in the hotel room", "do you have a Bible?", "the church has an ancient Bible", "I am going to a Bible study", etc...

Ofcourse, Senator Clinton was probably trying to make a point in this statement, and in the world of politics and diplomacy, sometimes words are exaggerated for a reason.

Getting back on topic, I do not think that anyone should burn something which is sacred to another. Period.

I agree with Bob that the media is presenting Christians in a bad light by highlighting this pastor...but then again, sensationalist stories like this make big news and that is probably the bottom line; ofcourse if Christians are making that news, to the secular media, it is probably all the better!

As for the proposed 'Cordoba Center', the name itself can be deemed insensitive, and, personally, I think that they should move the mosque somewhere else for the sake of peace and goodwill. They had a beautiful large mosque in the upper 90's of Manhattan, and downtown (Ground Zero area) is not really the kind of neighborhood (it is primarily commercial) that has much going on community wise, so, in a way, it is a bit suspect. In the meantime, the little Greek Orthodox church of St. Nicholas that was built years ago for visiting seamen and that was burned on 9/11 at Ground Zero has yet to be rebuilt thanks to trouble with the port authority...

Quite correct, and very regretable.

Most Lutherans and Anglicans refer to the Apostles, along with John the Baptist and Mary Magdalene as "Saint". But use of that title is limited to the Apostolic era, although there are a few of us who extend its use through the Patristic period through and including the Doctors of the Church.

One of the many tragedies of the most recent Lutheran (ELCA) hymnal is that the Apostles Days are no longer titled "St. Matthew, Apostle and Evangelist", etc, but simply "Matthew, Apostle and Evangelist" Egalitarianism run amok, or, given that body's other madness, yet one more attempt at silencing the voices of the past.

Alice said,
"Getting back on topic, I do not think that anyone should burn something which is sacred to another. Period."

I am definitely against burning something to make a statement that someone else deems as sacred. What an offensive and terrible thing to do in reaching out to one's neighbor. But what is one to do if they come across suspect material in their path or homes? Would you see a problem with throwing away leaflets that evangelicals leave around places to sort of teach a truncated version of the gospel, or JW magazines. Or if one found something seemingly of some more pagan religion or item that some think sacred but is actually occultic or new age, is it okay then to destroy it? Of course, I would not think we would consider burning such things, but wouldn't we get rid of them in a way that was not necessarily respectful. I would think the difference is that it is a private act of spiritual protection, not going out and buying something just to insult someone by destroying it. I suppose I would have no problem with owning religious books like the Koran myself if only for study and reference. But I would not keep occultic books or worse.

Anyway, I have nothing against what Alice said, just wondering what is fair game or not when incidentally interacting with other religious materials that may be suspect of spiritually harmful.

All this book burning was going to achieve, if it had gone ahead, would have been to enlarge the number of Christian martyrs, as the mob would have taken it out on the nearests Christians to hand.

Dear Searching East,


You have a point, and certainly in the privacy of our own homes we have the right to burn whatever we think is spiritually harmful. In my home, I would definitely burn any satanist or occultic material , no matter how precious or sacred it might be to those who follow it!!! Many holy monastics also tell us to do this with any material of Hinduism or Buddhism, as their 'holy' objects and prayers can invite their demons into our homes and lives.

What I meant to say is that a 'public' burning of another *monostheistic* religion's holy book is wrong, IMHO.

While I strongly disagree with burning the Qur'an, I also strongly disagree with referring to that hateful and violent book which calls on Muslims to kill, exile and imprison unbelievers as Holy.

In truth this whole thing is only an issue because unlike all other traditional religions Muslims riot and kill people when their hair trigger sensibilities are offended in any way. Of course they think nothing of building a Mosque right on the site of the 9/11 massacre which was committed in the name of their religion.

I have to agree with Bridget Gabrielle who is a Lebanese Maronite Christian and survivor of Islamic persecution in her country that we should have "Open a Qur'an day instead of burn a Qur'an day". That way people in the US and the rest of the world can better understand where exactly the hateful, violent and oppressive ideology comes from.

I am sorry but I find nothing holy or sacred about a man made religion whatever it is, I do conclude though that others are to be treated with respect. Even our enemies.
Stephanos I

Amen brother.

I once procured myself an English translation of the Quran and tried to read it - the further I got into the text, the less sense it made and so I finally gave up, saying, "This is completely beyond me." By the way I tried the same thing with the Book of Mormon and got the same results.

Hmmm Someone left a book of saying of the Buddha in my office that is now in my home since nobody ever returned for it. I thought it would be okay to keep for reference or learning some truths from it that are compatible with my faith, or comparing. I would also keep a Koran if I had one maybe for reference, if it did not make me uncomfortable
I also have books of religious poetry. One by an Arab poet named Rilke and another few books of Haiku's by Basho that are more Japanese often in religious reference.
Also, I have heard it argued that Hinduism is a monotheistic religion than people realize, and that hey many 'gods' are more faces of personalities of the one true god that they believe in.
But what are we to do privately with other religious material?

Glory to Jesus Christ!



Dear Searching East,

In reference to Hinduism, they are monist. They do not believe, ultimately, in an ultimate God like we monotheist do. They believe (whatever the branch) that all reality, gods, goddesses, us, the world, etc., are just an illusion or aspects of the ultimate reality which is not personable. That ultimate reality is something we need to be awaken to by loosening our "attachments" to what we perceive as reality. That is a very general assessment of the Hindu faith. I was very interested in it back in the day. But this is just a side note since you brought them up.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Searching,

Is this by an Arab poet or by Rainer Maria Rilke? Rilke was a Bohemian, generally thought to be among the most prominent poets to write in the German languages. Much of his poetry focuses on religious themes. He was Christian by birth, but did not practice - despite that it was the subject of so much that he wrote. Although not a Muslim, he did have an interest in and attraction to that faith.

Many years,

Neil

That is the one. I guess I thought that I read that he was Muslim, and upon checking have only really seen it said by some website that he may have preferred that religion, but belonged to neither. Where, I got the idea that he was Arab may be a confusion with another poet that I learned about at around the same time. I think I knew that Rilke wrote in German and the poetry he wrote that first got my attention was called the Book of Hours, after all. I think the person who I may have been confusing his history with was the Persian Rumi, who I don't own any works by but have looked in to a little. hanks for the clarification.

Making a public spectacle out of burning books is distasteful, and calls to mind abuses that have been perpetrated upon us. If various sorts of religious believers, political groups, and whatever else, should shove their unwelcome propaganda through our doorways we can easily get rid of it without having a "demonstration".

As to the Qu'ran a solution occurs to me - assuming that someone has wished one or more copies upon us. Take them to the nearest mosque and return them, saying that you did not want them to go to waste or risk mistreatment. Obviously, the Moslems can scarcely be offended by that response, but if time they will grasp that they should not leave a copy of the Qu'uran at your door!

Meanwhile, to the surprise of many people, I'm at least somewhat appreciative of the Moslems in Ireland, because they are printing an Irish translation of the Qu'uran. When I am challenged as to why I have the booklet for the Divine Liturgy in both Ukrainian and Irish, it is quite pleasant to smile politely, point out that the Moslems are printing the Qu'uran in Irish, and is the questioner really suggesting that the Moslems may use Irish but the Christians may not? A few doses of that treatment stops the anti-Irish language tripe like a turned-off faucet!

Fr. Serge