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Dear KL,

Russophobic or not, we CAN learn much from the Russian tradition.

The first thing we should learn from them is to be proud of our own Ukrainian tradition that is separate from the Russian tradition.

If not, then perhaps we really should begin to call ourselves the "Little Russians" that Jordanville publications always refer to us as.

Alex

Recently a couple of expressions came up regarding the Church Abroad which might deserve some comment. "Why should Ukrainian Catholics have to go to the Church Abroad to learn more of their own tradition?" Answer: because good books are good books, regardless of where one finds them, and since the Jordanville monastery and other publishing houses associated with the Church Abroad offer such books, it behooves those interested to make grateful use of them. There was also a reference to the Church Abroad being "out of communion with mainstream Orthodoxy". I don't claim to know how one would define mainstream Orthodoxy. But I do claim to know that at the recent consecration of the Church Abroad's new Bishop of Cleveland, which took place in Chicago just a couple of weeks ago, formal letters of greeting and congratulations were read out from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Church of Serbia. Sounds like mainstream Orthodoxy to me. As we chant in the Octoechos "Rejoice, Holy Zion, Mother of the Churches, abode of God!". Incognitus

I spent the weekend with my pastor trying to get one of our young people into a substance abuse treatment center. Without this the judge has declared he will go to prison. Please pray for him.

For those of us actually involved in parish ministry, not in academia theorizing about these things, we are fighting for the souls of the children. The beginning of this post was a wonderful display of enthusiasm from our youth about things of the Church.

I was at the beginning of this thread myself enthused to see these young lads actually interested in things of the Church.

So often in the Ukrainian Catholic Church the older generation has tried to define the identity for the younger ones. No wonder we have problems getting youth involved, when they actually show enthusiasm which is diminished by the judgements of the older generation who would like to theorize what they should be. No wonder so many youth see it as "baba's" or "dido's" Church, not as their own.

The lads tried to share a positive experience of Byzantine tradition. Instead they were met with disdain, judgement, and an attempt to redefine their identity. At no point did they in any way refute or renounce either the Ukrainian Catholic Church or Ukrainian identity.

This has saddended me literally to tears, as I see good young people being treated like this. Especially when there are some of us working so hard to keep them in our churches. Forgive me for my sentiments, my love and concern for our young people who ARE the church, not the future. I know Kyr Isidore would have embraced these young men for their interest and never attempted to disuade those with interests in things Byzantine.

To me, and perhaps I completely mistook the intent, this thread was evident of much more than a policital discussion, but of a much more problematic attitude towards our youth.

From my own experience, it was from the Russian Church, primarily the OCA and to a lesser extent the ROCOR from whom I learned the beauties of Vespers and came to appreciate its necessary place in Byzantine worship.

At that time with the exception of Sts. V&O in Chicago, St. Michael's Russian in New York, Mt. Tabor Monastery in California, and a few other spots in Canada and the USA there was no regular Vespers to be found in UGCC parishes. Period. Recited liturgies were very common.

Are you saying that any Ukrainian Catholic searching for a greater depth of beauty in the Byzantine Tradition, whether by ROCOR or OCA is by their very nature a Russophile? The OCA still has its share of Greek Catholic polemic, I assure you. And Dr. Roman, the OCA still has official ties to the Patriarchal Church of Moscow. Considering the behavior of the MP since 1946, where does that leave us with your arguments regarding the ROCOR?

Perhaps in my case I also recognize that the Russian Church has returned to us in an implicit way through our partaking in their liturgical tradition and riches, to us in the UGCC the great gift it had received from Kyiv, namely a desire to preserve and celebrate the great Kyivan liturgical tradition with fervor, attention, and respect.

Unfortunatly Greek Catholic churches to a great extent have lost this tradition, and were it not for the Orthodox we would to a great extent not know how to go about reclaiming it. I in no way renounce my membership as a Ukrainian Greek Catholic, nor am trying to downplay either the Tsarist repression of the Ukrainians nor especially that of Soviet times by Moscow.

To digress, as far as rubrics go in the Kyivan Tradition, I have found the prescriptions of the annual Rydna Niva of the UOC in Canada to be the very best and most succinct in terms of transmitting the Kyivan liturgical rubrics. So there is more to life for me, at least, than the ROCOR for Byzantine tradition. I just felt compelled to come to the defense of these lads who just wished to display some enthusiasm and were pounded for it. There is more here than just that going on between these two parties, but I in charity will not go into it.

May God bless us all and have mercy on us.

Dear Diak,

But aren't you hiding behind religious and Ukrainian values as much as those "didos" would in declaiming association with the Tsarist ROCOR church?

This Church is formally against anything "Ukrainian" that it defines as a concoction of later nationalism.

It is against the Ukrainian Catholic Church as such.

Do you deny that these positions are not ROCOR's formal positions as evidenced in their publications?

And is this the kind of association you would wish on our youth?

You avoid this question by trying to place it in the context of dido's and baba's as if the Ukrainian national identity and UGCC aren't contemporary issues that should be cherished and defended.

Otherwise, why do we bother with either?

Morally and every which way, to approve of our young people going to Jordanville or ROCOR anything is to approve of POTENTIALLY exposing them to proximate dangers to their faith and identity.

Perhaps that's old fashioned.

But that's the way I was raised as a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic.

And I would venture to say that most of our people would agree with me.

And only we Ukies would tolerate and even support another church or group even though THEY (never mind about whether we agree with them or not) are against what our Church and nationality stand for.

Sorry for your tears.

I shed tears too. So do many of our people.

We seem to be our own worst enemies.

But I know you will see among those enemies myself for taking the position I have here.

If I am an enemy of our Church for being against exposing our youth to ROCOR influences, then, as one bishop told me over the weekend, "May all our Church's enemies be like you, Alex!"

And, please, if I hear any more platitudes about ROCOR and our idealistic youth, it will be . . . PUKIE!

I've obviously hit on a sore point with you, Diak, and I didn't intend for it to be this way.

I'll get out of your hair and leave it alone. Forget about me and my silly views! God bless you!

Alex

Dera Michael,

And we don't have good books too?

The world-view of ROCOR is at least consistent. And THEY don't pretend to be 'neutral' on anything, least of all their views of old Russia and the Russian empire.

We Ukies tend to "forgive" even when those who deny what we are won't do the same or change. Forgiveness is a two-way street.

Perhaps we've become so "neutral" and "Christian" that we no longer care what ROCOR thinks.

Is ROCOR Christian for thinking as it does about its former colonies like Ukraine? Can we forgive those who don't seek forgiveness?

Is this the height of political naivete or what?

We not only need future priests who can sing tones and swing a good censor!

We need them to be truly immersed in what is the Ukrainian tradition, know the difference between this tradition and the Russian one (if it's not too late to change their minds on this after one too many trips to Jordanville), and be in possession of a true blue (and yellow) Ukrainian identity.

That is how the parents of the children I have taught religion to see things as well - dido's and baba's too, but they have been relatively successful in brainwashing their descendants.

It is clear that ROCOR itself doesn't consider itself in communion with world Orthodoxy, except for here and there, however world Orthodoxy sees ROCOR.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada sees the Ukrainian Catholics as closer to it than ROCOR - if I wanted to become Orthodox there I would only have to attend confession. ROCORites would need to be chrismated.

The point is that we wouldn't formerly have bought South African wine because of that state's policies.

Why do we Ukie Catholics want to have dealings with ROCOR?

And send our youth there?

You and Diak have had it easy here. You've only had me to contend with.

Go out into the real parish world of the UGCC, dido's and baba's et al. and tell them about this beginning with the bishops.

And don't forget to use the arguments you are using here.

Intellectual? When it comes to this issue, there is little that is academically removed.

Our people in the parish trenches aren't concerned with intellectualism.

They ARE concerned with their Ukrainian Church and identity.

Alex

Have had it easy??? I appear to need to spend more time with our people anyway, which is apparently a failing that I have been judged on mutlitple occasions to be greatly lacking in according to our great expert here.

It's interesting how you can take one thread and paint people in such ways when my positions regarding our Church are here...well, enough time defending any positions of mine to you. Your other posts defending Jordanville material (just the other day, i.e. discussing St. Seraphim of Sarov, forgotten already ?), your positions defending the Romanovs, etc. make some of your statements here appear somewhat hypocritical.

And while you will chastize the ROCOR, you still have not addressed your position with the OCA who is in official communion with the MP, and we won't even go there with respect to the MP's history with our Ukrainian Greek Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

The only intellectualism on this thread has been your theorizing, polemics and judgements, Alex. I want what's best for our Church, including our youth. I love my church for everyone in it, old and young. To be attacked like this by someone in academia with accusations of "intellectualism" and other much more serious things is disturbing. Don't you really want some of us gone here to clear the way for your own soapbox?

After spending over 20 years in UGCC parishes and six in a UGCC seminary program, this is an ad hominem attack to minalize mine and other's work and love for their Church and I now take my leave from this forum to avoid my own temper and any resulting uncharitable or potential "anti-Ukrainian" responses. This is about far more than just your positions on the ROCOR when you treat people this way, Alex.

I have spent nights with dying parishoners other than my own family members who had no one to be with them, and who couldn't speak much English. I have been through baptisms, funerals, consoled those babas on losing dido, cried and sung with the UPA vets when one of their number went to his eternal reward, arranged to ship bodies to Ukraine when the small town funeral parlor hadn't any idea how to ship one out of state, much less to Ukraina.

Within the last two weeks had to assist with an Orthodox lady, new immigrant from Ukraine who had a child drowned and was facing not only deportation but the state taking away her remaining child...All of this is too much like I'm defending myself when I feel I have done nothing wrong. Enough is enough. Perhaps I could suggest it is you that has the "easy life" of academia and lacks "pastoral sensitivity" and experience with some of these human situations, but I didn't and wouldn't.

My consolation is in our Ukrainian Catholic people, who thankfully are all not like the above poster in their attitudes. And I am not sorry for partaking the beauty of the Russian liturgical and spiritual tradition without losing my Ukrainian Greek Catholic identity.

May God forgive me and bless you all.

Dear Gentlemen:

I would not recommend sending all the Ukrainian youth to Jordanville for instruction.

The ones that did go were more than a match for anything that could have been thrown at them.

The polemics on this thread are really are really unbelievable.

Should one not send their children to university because they may be exposed to controversy, herasy or differing oppinions?

defreitas

Dear Diak,

I withdraw my previous post to you, ask your forgiveness and remove myself from this forum.

I have been clearly condemned and I accept that.

Alex