The press always makes more of this than is actually there. These people are about as relevant as the shopping bag ladies wearing the tin-foil hats protesting outside the White House about the orbital mind control lasers sending messages to their brains.
I thought this issue was settled in 1994 by Pope John Paul II of blessed memory. He issued a document that called on Catholics to believe that women could not be priests, that the Church could not do what the Lord had not done, and called for Catholics to stop trying to find ways to do this kind of thing.
APOSTOLIC LETTER ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS OF JOHN PAUL II TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION TO MEN ALONE
You may find this on the Vatican website or just google it.
The question then becomes is a person who continues to dissent from this really a Catholic or not? Can a person continue to call himself a Catholic and dissent? (From the 1960s, one could conclude "yes," but what eternal consequences does this carry?) What is the reality of lawful authority? What must one do when lawful authority makes a final decision?
The article is misleading. It claims that a lady called Alta Jacko is "an ordained priest in the Roman Catholic Church." This is completely wrong. Under the law of the Catholic Church, "both the one who attempts to confer sacred ordination on a woman, and she who attempts to receive sacred ordination, incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See" (De Gravioribus Delictis, [zenit.org] art. 5 § 1). Thus, Ms. Jacko is automatically excommunicated. So is whoever attempted to ordain her. Notice the use of the verb "attempt": it means that it is in fact impossible to ordain a woman, but even attempting to do so is a crime against the Sacrament of Orders. So, Ms. Jacko is neither a priest nor in the Roman Catholic Church.
Time really got this one wrong!
Last edited by Latin Catholic; 09/27/1007:16 PM. Reason: linguistic clean-up
A secure female is not afraid to follow and respect the ancient tradition of the Church, IMHO
I would agree, but when there is a change in roles that has now become essentially commonplace, such as with altar servers and eucharistic ministers; it is not surprising that a lot of people wouldn't see the next logical step as ordination. The surprising thing to me in the article is the assistance being given from the inside.
We still have a large number of leftover 1960s dissidents inside. This seems to be largely a function of the English-speaking world, though there is some movement in the Germanic parts of the world--Germany and the Low countries. It seems to me to be part of the failure of catechesis in the past 45 years--part of the "spirit of Vatican II" mindset that thought that everything was up for grabs, discussion, and change; part of the idea that we were supposed to "reform and bring up to date" everything, including doctrine. Keep us in your prayers, please.
It's interesting that the Catholic Church is dialoguing with the Eastern Churches who share Apostolic origin, practice, doctrine, and liturgy, yet we can't seem to keep our own house in order. Thus we have scandalized a good many of our own Eastern brethren as well as our Orthodox brethren, many of whom might have entertained the THOUGHT of moving toward communion only to put the idea out of their minds because of this sort of thing and the fact that Rome can't seem to exercise the authority that has been claimed to reside in the Petrine office.
I find this whole story absurd and it surprises me that so many of you are discussing it as though it is serious. Anyone with even the most rudimentary understand of Roman Catholic doctrine would understand that a woman cannot be ordained a priest no matter what the facilities of the mysterious hidden bishop who did the ordination. This is constantly discussed in other threads when apostolic succession is discussed. It has been made abundantly clear that the women ordained by the Anglican churches can never be considered priests in the Catholic Church even if the Church were to agree tomorrow to recognize the orders of all of the male Anglican priests.
To be validly ordained the Bishop must have the authority to ordain the person and the person must be qualified to be ordained. By definition women are not qualified to be ordained in the Roman Catholic Church.
To consider Time magazine an authoritative source on anything is a bit of a stretch but to accept it as having anything but the most questionable motives when it reports on anything Roman Catholic is the height of naiveté.
I suppose some of them think if the Emperor Gaius Caligula could make his horse Incitatus a senator, then a bishop ought to be able to ordain a woman as a presbyter. Their Graces know what happened to Caligula, though.
The point is that this is clearly an outlier and does not represent the position of the Magisterium or the Catholic hierarchy regardless of attempts to portray it as such by the media or others. Infinite examples of aberrant behavior can be given for any organized religious body.
It's interesting that the Catholic Church is dialoguing with the Eastern Churches who share Apostolic origin, practice, doctrine, and liturgy, yet we can't seem to keep our own house in order. Thus we have scandalized a good many of our own Eastern brethren as well as our Orthodox brethren, many of whom might have entertained the THOUGHT of moving toward communion only to put the idea out of their minds because of this sort of thing and the fact that Rome can't seem to exercise the authority that has been claimed to reside in the Petrine office.
Popes Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI have indeed exercised their authority on this matter. Just because the rebels keep pushing the envelope doesn't mean it's an open question.
The Orthodox have their own rebels: the late Patriarch Parthenius III of Alexandria, Elizabeth Behr-Siegel, Anthony Bloom, Valerie Karras (just to name a few prominent Orthodox modernists) all have favored the innovation women priests.
I will have to compare that with theophan's statement that there is a lot of internal dissent on the matter. What was surprising to me as I said was the support being offered by those on the inside. As I said, it isn't surprising to me that there is a culture of expectation that has developed based on the changing roles at the parish level.
Quote
Popes Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI have indeed exercised their authority on this matter.
Are the priests in question likely to be disciplined?
The Orthodox have their own rebels: the late Patriarch Parthenius III of Alexandria, Elizabeth Behr-Siegel, Anthony Bloom, Valerie Karras (just to name a few prominent Orthodox modernists) all have favored the innovation women priests.
Which only points out one of the salient differences between the Catholic and Orthodox mindsets: these Orthodox "modernists" (please try to find a more accurate term that really means something more than "people with whose opinion I disagree") are content to talk and discuss; they would never dream of breaking with the Tradition and actually "ordaining" women to the presbyterate, and if they did, they would never dare to call themselves "good Orthodox Christians", because if being Orthodox means anything at all, it means being in communion with bodies of like-minded believers who adhere to a Tradition.
One can posit why this is the case. That the Tradition is intrinsic and thus forms internalized bonds of loyalty and assent, while the Catholic magisterium is extrinsic and relies more on an appeal to authority is just one possible reason.
. . . if being Orthodox means anything at all, it means being in communion with bodies of like-minded believers who adhere to a Tradition.
I think two things enter here, peculiar to what Catholics see themselves to be in this age.
1. We've heard so much of the "spirit of Vatican II" which has come to mean that anything "traditional" is something we have either "given up" or should give up to be "up to date."
2. Catholics don't seem to understand the difference between big "T" and small "t" Traditiontradition (or to have the smallest clue, in my experience). They don't seem to have the Orthodox understanding of Tradition being the ongoing life of the Holy Trinity lived out within the Church in history--and that history being the present as well as the past: the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth. (That really goes over lots of heads in my experience of discussion groups.) But, then, catechesis hasn't been the best in over 45 years either.
I get the point quite well thank you. That is, unless you are speaking of the deliberate attempt by some to use this nonsensical story to distort the state and position of the entire Catholic Church.
Actually, if I understand how this works, these people excommunicated themselves when they engaged in these acts. They do not need a formal document certifying their excommunication. That is what automatic excommunication means. Further action would be forthcoming for the priest involved but the woman can by all the vestments she wants, wonder around calling herself what ever she wants and there is nothing the Church can or will do about it other than warn people of the danger to their souls if they become involved with her in anyway.
One last point. There is no St. Harold's Catholic Community in the Archdiocese of Chicago. This is just another group masquerading as a Catholic church. Unfortunately, the Roman Catholic Church does not have a registered trademark on the term Catholic. One source describes Father Bob Bossie this way:"Father Bob Bossie, of the PRO-gay rights and women's rights Catholic organization, 8th Day Center for Justice." Apparently, he is a very popular fellow among the lunatic fringe of the Catholic Church.
My point once again is why is anyone on the list giving any credence to these people? They have nothing to do with the other 50 million Catholics in this country.
Scroll down to the end there: Bossie is a supporter of World Can't Wait, an intiative founded in June 2005 by Charles Clark Kissinger, a longtime leader of the Revolutionary Communist Party.
Can't he be removed/censured based on Latin Canon 1394:
One who joins an association which plots against the Church is to be punished with a just penalty; one who promotes or moderates such an association, however, is to be punished with an interdict. [Code of Canon Law, Latin-English Edition. Canon Law Society of America, Washington, D.C., 1983, p. 497.]
By the way the address of "St. Harold's Catholic Community" aka "St. Harold Community" is listed as 4720 Sheridan in Chicago.. also the address of "Chicago Uptown Ministry, now a program of Lutheran Child and Family Services of Illinois" (http://www.lcfs.org/Page.aspx?pid=1173) Why don't these phonies just accept their protestant Lutheranism and quit pretending? The priest is still a member of the SCJ congregation.. on paper.. born in 1937.. =)
2. Catholics don't seem to understand the difference between big "T" and small "t" Traditiontradition (or to have the smallest clue, in my experience). They don't seem to have the Orthodox understanding of Tradition being the ongoing life of the Holy Trinity lived out within the Church in history--and that history being the present as well as the past: the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth. (That really goes over lots of heads in my experience of discussion groups.) But, then, catechesis hasn't been the best in over 45 years either.
This is a valid point for Latin Catholics in our time.
But I believe Orthodoxy have its own problem where Tradition vs tradition is so mixed up that sometimes what is 'tradition' is canonized in par with 'Tradition.' And any changes in 'tradition' can create much violence and perhaps, schism.
A gal from my year in college turned into one of these.
Bizarrely, the alumni magazine for my Catholic (well, Jesuit) college included her blurb claiming to be a founding "bishop" of some new "Catholic" church. She also claimed to have been an "independent Catholic priest" for several years.
She had been a theology major and, yes, a heretic as an undergraduate.
Are the priests in question likely to be disciplined?
Anyone attempting to ordain a woman, as well as the woman who attempts to receive ordination, is automatically excommunicated.
I don;t think that this is true in all cases. For example, there is the case of Ludmila Javorova who was ordained a priest by Bishop Davidek in Czechoslovakia. I don;t think that the Vatican ever excommunicated her.In fact, Ludmila Javorová is an active member of the Roman Catholic Church and she is currently a speaker of the Liturgical Commission of her local parish. However, she does not exercise any of her priestly powers.
Are the priests in question likely to be disciplined?
Anyone attempting to ordain a woman, as well as the woman who attempts to receive ordination, is automatically excommunicated.
I don;t think that this is true in all cases. For example, there is the case of Ludmila Javorova who was ordained a priest by Bishop Davidek in Czechoslovakia. I don;t think that the Vatican ever excommunicated her.In fact, Ludmila Javorová is an active member of the Roman Catholic Church and she is currently a speaker of the Liturgical Commission of her local parish. However, she does not exercise any of her priestly powers.
The major problem is with the education the Church provides. I was speaking with a women who said she was a Eucharistic Minister (although we all know that only bishops, priests, and deacons are the only Eucharistic Ministers.) It was flu season and she stated that she was "giving out the wine" at church and had to drink what was left over. I corrected her and the conversation did not turn out well. This just one exmple of how poorly some lay people are educated. The really bad thing is the extraordinary minsters of the eucharist actually have to attend training. I'm not sure what they are taught but apparently it is not enough.
The major problem is with the education the Church provides. I was speaking with a women who said she was a Eucharistic Minister (although we all know that only bishops, priests, and deacons are the only Eucharistic Ministers.) . . . The really bad thing is the extraordinary minsters of the eucharist actually have to attend training. I'm not sure what they are taught but apparently it is not enough.
Searcher:
Christ is in our midst!!
Not always--unfortunately. There is a mindset that thinks it is some supreme good to get as many people involved in "ministry" as possible. In many places there is just enough technical training that people don't drop a Host--and what to do if they do. It's an uphill battle since many don't have the foggiest idea of what it is they are doing or Who it is they hold in their hands.
I was on retreat two weeks ago and one of the priest speakers made the statement that 40% of Catholics don't beleive int eh Real Presence. And I'm sure that there are some of those 40% among those who style themsleves Eucharistic Ministers.
Of the many extraordinary ministers I have known, having been one myself, I can say that most are completely sincere, heartily committed and grossly ignorant. The one hour of training includes, when to approach the altar, where to stand to receive communion, where to stand to dispense the consecrated host or wine, how to return the chalice to the alter of to take the cup to the table, how to return to ones pew. Extra content may include when to bow, when to make the sign of the cross and warnings against shaking hands and making up your own commentary when distributing the host or cup.
A most recent addition appears to be where to find the hand sanitizer and how to apply it in the most respectful manner.
This is pretty much the extent of the catechesis.
Having said that, what do we expect when the root of the problem is distributing communion to 1000 people in less than ten minutes. Keep in mind that even at their limited level of understanding, the extraordinary ministers are probably far more knowledgeable than the vast majority of the communicants whose main goals appear to be getting their share and getting to the parking lot before the last hymn is finished.
In general, the whole scene in these megaparishes has the solemnity of a supermarket checkout line. Sad, very sad.
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