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Originally Posted by StuartK
Ask Father Serge and Robert Taft, among others.

Did Fr Taft write about that somewhere?

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I recall reading in The Union of Uzhorod, Michael Lacko,S.J., a professor at the Pontifical Institute for Oriental Studies, that the neighboring RC Hungarian Bishop was shocked at the proliferation of annulments and remarriages of the Orthodox Ruthenians just before the Union. So you could call a more disciplined approach to be a "latinization" but it would be more proper to call it a desired reform. However this was in the 17th century, way before 1917.

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I believe Taft did write on this, I will find the exact citation.

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Originally Posted by PeterPeter
I asked whether it is true that the Eastern Catholic Churches in general, UGCC in particular, had followed the Orthodox discipline of divorce (whatever the specific grounds for divorce were) until 1917. The answer I got was that this is not true. Therefore I would like to see the source for StuartK's claim.

I see that EWTN remarks that the Melkite Catholics are at odds with Rome over the issue of second marriage after divorce. Whether this extends to the UGCC?

http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/EASTRITE.TXT

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Originally Posted by Hieromonk Ambrose
Originally Posted by PeterPeter
I asked whether it is true that the Eastern Catholic Churches in general, UGCC in particular, had followed the Orthodox discipline of divorce (whatever the specific grounds for divorce were) until 1917. The answer I got was that this is not true. Therefore I would like to see the source for StuartK's claim.

I see that EWTN remarks that the Melkite Catholics are at odds with Rome over the issue of second marriage after divorce. Whether this extends to the UGCC?

http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/EASTRITE.TXT

Definitely it doesn't extend to contemporary UGCC, the question is what was it like before 1917. I hope StuartK will find the citation or maybe Fr Serge, who is a member of this forum, could contribute.

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This is an interesting discussion and it leads me to the thought that always is in the back of my Orthodox head. That is of course what is the balance point of the 'sui juris' churches with respect to the 'universal' teachings of the Western Church when those teachings or perhaps better stated as 'practices' , as applied by the West differ from those historically exercised by the Eastern world?

I suspect that is the ultimate question and been so since Florence. In any event, such questions must not stop us from talking towards and striving for the unity of the faith

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I've tried to send a PM to Fr Serge Keleher to ask to shed some light on the issue of sources that claim that before 1917 the UGCC allowed divorce and remarriage under Orthodox-like conditions, but unfortunately Fr Serge is "over their Private Topic limit" - whatever it means.

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I think that His Grace Arcbhishop Joseph (Raya) of blessed memory had an interesting point in his book, Crowning, the Christian Marriage:


Quote
St. Epiphanios of Cyprus, who lived in the fourth century, says that “he who cannot keep continence after the death of his first wife, or for a valid motive such as fornication, adultery or another misdeed, if he takes a wife, or if the wife (in similar circumstances) takes another husband, the Divine Logos does not condemn them or exclude them from the Church.

The Council of Neocaesarea imposed on the clergy the obligation to divorce an adulterous wife (See on this subject the study in Concillium, Vol.55-1970, p.76f). And Father Nicholas van der Wal adds: This position may have been reached in the early Byzantine Church by taking Matthew 5:53 as part of the Sermon on the Mount. It is indeed possible to see the exhortation of the Sermon as the precepts of an ideal ethic which the Christian striving after perfection must try to live up to (and here the Byzantine Church would first of all think of monks and nuns) while this would not be asked of ordinary people” (p.80) (See also Korbianman Ritzer for details, Concillium, Vol.55-1970, p.67 seq.).

St. Basil has a special dissertation on Oikonomia which was officially approved by the Sixth Ecumenical Council of the Undivided Church of East and West, the Second Council of Constantinople in 680. Canon 25 states: “Spouses abandoned without reason are excused, and this pardon means they will be accepted to communion if they remarry”. St. John Chrysostom adds, “It is better to break up a marriage than be damned”. Archbishop Elias Zoghby declared at the Second Vatican Council that “even the Church of the West maintained this practice for many hundreds of years with the positive approval of many bishops, popes and synods; and in fact, never attempted to condemn it in the East, even after it had ceased to practice it” (The Melkite Church at Vatican II, p.24). . .

After ceasing to apply the principle Oikonomia, in its concern and solicitude for its children, the Western Church established the system generally known as annulment. It should rather be called “declaration of nullity”. It consists in a declaration that since wone of the partners had entered a prospective marriage without fulfilling one of the basic conditions of indissolubility—full consent, freedom and understanding—the marriage actually had never existed, even after children had been born. Both partners are then free to remarry.

In some instances, this system has been extended by western Marriage Tribunals—rightfully or not, it is not for us to judge—to cases in which marriage were presently and actually dead, even though originally valid.

The Church of Rome uses its power over the sacrament of the priesthood, and releases some of its bishops and priests from the ministry of their priesthood. The bond of priesthood is no less sacred and no less eternal than the bond of matrimony. The Church of Rome allows bishops and priests to give up their life of ministry in the Church and marry, while still recognizing the eternal character of their priesthood. In fact, this same power is used [in the Byzantine Church] over the sacrament of marriage to help and heal a painful state of abandonment and solitude.

There are some unavoidable circumstances in which some people are totally unable to continue living with their original sacramental partner. If in such cases, a union is contracted with a different partner, this in fact honors the Gospel command making the human person more precious than the law of indissolubility. “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27). Absolute enforcement would lead to cruel legalism.

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Archbishop Raya's comments made me think of an old colleague. I had a Roman Catholic friend whose first marriage ended in a divorce. He was a product of a good Catholic secondary academy and a good Jesuit college. His uncle was a Jesuit priest.

His first marriage in the 1970's was to an Eastern Catholic woman which took place in the Eastern Catholic Church. His uncle was present but did not participate as the priest of the parish was, to say the least, not kindly disposed to his Latin brothers.

Anyway, after several children they drifted apart and ultimately divorced civilly. He met an Roman Catholic woman and sought to marry. He did so in the Roman Church after obtaining an annulment.

He was troubled by the whole process and what it meant, particularly as to the concept that the initial marriage was 'invalid' ab initio . He felt that it was not and that he and his first wife did in fact enter into that union in good faith and with good intentions.

We would discuss this periodically as he felt that the Orthodox approach was more realistic in its assessment of human failings and would make explaining the whole process easier for their children to accept and understand as they grew older.

He felt that many of his divorced friends and their priests tended to treat the whole process with a 'wink and a nod' in order for the second marriage (I guess actually the first if you accept the void ab initio approach.) to proceed.

I know that this is slightly off topic, but I was wondering if any Eastern Catholics have faced similar feelings regarding the whole legalistic concept of annulments and remarriage within the Catholic Church. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by PeterPeter
I've tried to send a PM to Fr Serge Keleher to ask to shed some light on the issue of sources that claim that before 1917 the UGCC allowed divorce and remarriage under Orthodox-like conditions, but unfortunately Fr Serge is "over their Private Topic limit" - whatever it means.

Peter,

It means that our beloved Father has, as is the case periodically, not emptied out his PM box in a while - it does have a finite capacity.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally Posted by StuartK
I think we basically should return to the canons of Serdica, under which Rome was the ecclesiastical court of final appeal. As long as Rome limited itself to an appellate role, there was general accord among the Churches.


Stuart,

I couldn't agree more.

-Scott

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Originally Posted by Hieromonk Ambrose
Originally Posted by PeterPeter
I asked whether it is true that the Eastern Catholic Churches in general, UGCC in particular, had followed the Orthodox discipline of divorce (whatever the specific grounds for divorce were) until 1917. The answer I got was that this is not true. Therefore I would like to see the source for StuartK's claim.

I see that EWTN remarks that the Melkite Catholics are at odds with Rome over the issue of second marriage after divorce. Whether this extends to the UGCC?

http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/EASTRITE.TXT


This EWTN article is old and needs to be updated, coming from Milwaukee: Bruce Publishing Company, 1935-1937-1947. It just reinforces all the misconceptions most Latin-rite Catholics have of the various Eastern Catholic Churches as well as displaying a great amount of ignorance. (As a Melkite, it is especially difficult to read.) I find that I can't really read things like that too much because they make me angry, and I lose my peace of soul. (Silly, I know, but it just gets frustrating after a while.) It's this sort of attitude that has forced so many Eastern Catholics to return to Orthodoxy.

-Scott

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Originally Posted by Melkite Convert
Originally Posted by StuartK
I think we basically should return to the canons of Serdica, under which Rome was the ecclesiastical court of final appeal. As long as Rome limited itself to an appellate role, there was general accord among the Churches.


Stuart,

I couldn't agree more.

-Scott

What are the canons of Serdica ? What council do they come from? When exactly did the Church of Rome drop these canons?

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

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Originally Posted by DMD
This is an interesting discussion and it leads me to the thought that always is in the back of my Orthodox head. That is of course what is the balance point of the 'sui juris' churches with respect to the 'universal' teachings of the Western Church when those teachings or perhaps better stated as 'practices' , as applied by the West differ from those historically exercised by the Eastern world?

I suspect that is the ultimate question and been so since Florence. In any event, such questions must not stop us from talking towards and striving for the unity of the faith


I think you may be correct in this. I agree that this is probably the ultimate question, and yes, it should not stop us from speaking to one another. If anything, it should compel us to more interaction and more prayer for reconciliation.

-Scott

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Originally Posted by Luvr of East
Originally Posted by Melkite Convert
Originally Posted by StuartK
I think we basically should return to the canons of Serdica, under which Rome was the ecclesiastical court of final appeal. As long as Rome limited itself to an appellate role, there was general accord among the Churches.


Stuart,

I couldn't agree more.

-Scott

What are the canons of Serdica ? What council do they come from? When exactly did the Church of Rome drop these canons?

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel


Manuel,

Here is a good article on the Council of Serdica or Sardica.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Sardica

Quote
Before separating, the bishops enacted several important canons, especially concerning the transfer and trial of bishops and appeals. These canons, with the other documents of the council, were sent to Pope Julius with a letter signed by the majority of the attending bishops.

I would be interested in reading the exact Canons myself. I wasn't familiar with this Council either until I read Stuart's post, but I agree with the principle he puts forth.

There is a book I found: The Early Development of Canon Law and the Council of Serdica by Hamilton Hess. This might be the best source for information about it.

Also, I don't know if these Canons ever fell out of use in the Roman Church. My guess is that they are one of the things used to justify Vatican I. They are probably seen as part of the development of doctrine concerning the papacy. In other words, they were not replaced but rather expanded.

-Scott

Last edited by Melkite Convert; 11/23/10 02:41 PM.
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