www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Remembering Holodomor

I am simply attesting to the truth. Something you are keen on.

It would probably be good if the synod issued such a statement. Metropolitan Volodymyr's statement was a good first step. Maybe you could also admit you did not speak the truth when you said no statements about the Holodomor existed.

I agree that the weight of the full moral force of the Synod of the MP would be wonderful in light of the actions of the revisionists/Putinistas running Russia today.

With my Ukrainian brothers ( who don't always recognize our own aspiratioins), we Rusyns who truly understand and honor our heritage can hardly be sympathizers with the Russianizers and Russophiles.

The historical reality of the Orthodox Church in Russia is that she has far too often been either forced to accept or been a willing partner in the imperial aspirations of the secular state. I am sure that within the Synod there are Metropolitans who fervently believe that there is no Ukraine etc etc etc....

That being said, and without judging his motives, I simply fail to see how you can not give more credit to Metropolitan Volodomyr for his stance. It is contrary to the Russian apologists who took the Ukrainian presidency this year's stated positions on the matter.

It is easy to sit here in the West and posit this or that in terms of absolutes. Is the canonical status of Orthodoxy in Ukraine confused and irregular at the present time - probably so. Should there be a reconciliation of the three main groups and a unified Orthodox voice in Ukraine? Yes, just as the ideal would be here in the states.

But political realities are what they are. For now it is simply unfair and incorrect to parse +Volodomir's words. I have heard from those whose judgment I trust, that he is a decent man in a difficult position. We should pray for him and all of our Eastern brothers and sisters in Ukraine - Orthodox and Catholic alike - and ask the Theotokos to intercede on their behalf and to aid them in moving forward and in countering the non-believers, Evangelicals and others within Ukraine who are profiting from the ongoing organizational chaos and disputations within the Eastern churches.

And by the way, I would NEVER ascribe moral equivalence between the position of the west and that of the Soviets during the Cold War.

The example set by our Ukrainian Bishops here in America from the UOCA and the UGCC is a wonderous thing. Cvahala Bohu!

DMD says "The example set by our Ukrainian Bishops here in America from the UOCA and the UGCC is a wonderous thing. Cvahala Bohu!"

Yes, it is true. Ukrainians get along pretty well with each other in North America. Sadly, not so well in Ukraine.

My brothers, AMM and DMD, make very valid points. While criticizing the failure of the Synod to speak on the matter, it is dishonest to ignore or dismiss out-of-hand the remarks of one hierarch, such as Metropolitan Volodomir, who did speak out, for that failure. Likewise, parsing his words, is neither productive nor fair.

Many years,

Neil

Brother Neil, if you go to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarch) website mentioned and to the link on Metropolitan Sabodan's pastoral address on the Holodomor, you will note conspicuously that the said statement is provided ONLY in the UKRAINIAN and ENGLISH languages but NOT in the Russian Language - the language of primary use of the faithful of the Moscow Patriarchate's Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

I am not sure if you are fluent in Ukrainian and/or Russian, but here is the link to Metropolitan Sabodan's Pastoral Letters, included among which are the said Pastoral Letter on the Holodomor in the Ukrainian language:

http://orthodox.org.ua/ru/pastyrskoe_slovo_0?page=1

The site is trilingual but there is no Russian text for the Holodomor statement though Russian texts are provided for most others.

What puzzles me is that the site chose to post this Pastoral Letter in Ukrainian and for that matter in English, as here:
http://orthodox.org.ua/eng/node/1021

But it is not posted in the language which most of the adherents of the Moscow Patriarchate use in Ukraine - that is in Russian! In other words, this pastoral letter is felt important enough to translate into English to impress the English-speaking Ukrainian diaspora I believe, but it does not appear in the Russian Language. An issue of as large a concern as the Holodomor should appear at least in Russian and Ukrainian (never mind English). Sadly, wittingly or not, it is only given in Ukrainian and English which only leaves the impression that it is not meant for consumption by Russian speakers in Ukraine, or in Russia for that matter. I do not believe this is an oversight.

Then we come to the issue of the current Minister of Education in Ukraine under Yanukovych's government who in a recent article wrote remarkably that Ukrainian posters who post on the Holodomor are "Polluting" the blogosphere. The Education Minister is Dmytro Tabachnyk. Ukrainian textbooks for kids will change under Tabachnyk. Unfortunately, when the controversial nomination of Dmytro Tabachnyk as minister of education got stuck because of protests from parliamentarians of Yanukovych’s own party who questioned Tabachnyk’s integrity, Moscow Patriarch Kirill personally lobbied President Yanukovych to see through the nomination of Tabachnyk - the same Tabachnyk who wrote an article in Russian two months ago that talk of the "Holodomor" is just "pollution of the blogosphere". I can look for the article if you want but I did read it online and they were Tabachnyk's own words: "Holodomor" subject = "pollution".

And even if the Moscow Patriarchate's Ukrainian Orthodox hierarchs do not want to engage in commemorations of the Holodomor because Ukrainian Greek-Catholics and the Kyivan Patriarchate Orthodox are there, who on God's earth is preventing the hierarchs and priests of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Moscow Patriarchate to then hold their own separate "molobens" for the millions killed in the Holodomor!? Who? Saying the Ukrainian Catholics or Orthodox KP are present is no excuse now is it for at least not attempting a separate memorial service?

I am sorry but we at least owe it to the millions of dead of this tragedy to explain who is exactly taking the effort to remember actively the Holodomor and its millions of fatalities and who doesn't. The Soviet Union collapsed almost twenty years ago. Enough excuses.

Thanks for this.

I agree, those of us who are not speakers of these languages are at a disadvantage and really can't pick up upon the nuances that one may perceive if one is fluent. One thing is for sure, any attempt to weigh in on the difficulties facing Ukraine and Ukrainian issues is certain to provoke passion from one faction or another. You are all in my thoughts and prayers as we have good friends within both the UOC and UGCC here in the States and we share much in common with them in our practices and language.

I apologize if I offended anyone with my comments in this thread. It is not good to turn a discussion commemorating a tragedy in to an argument. Let us all keep the memory alive of the victims of the Holodomor and seek to educate those unaware of what happened.

THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

November 20, 2010
Statement by the NSC Spokesman Mike Hammer on Ukraine's Holodomor Remembrance Day

Today we commemorate 77 years since the tragic events of the “Holodomor,” when millions of innocent Ukrainians perished as a result of the deliberate policies of Joseph Stalin. Americans join with the Ukrainian people and ethnic Ukrainians around the world in remembering all those who died so senselessly.

The Holodomor was a man-made tragedy in which millions starved to death when Ukrainian farms and crops were seized in 1932 and 1933. This was a calculated attempt to break the will of the people of Ukraine and to end their desire for self-determination. But it failed, because the people of Ukraine—and our strong Ukrainian-American communities across the United States—never gave up hope that their homeland would be free.

We therefore also pay tribute to the strength and resilience of the Ukrainian people who endured unspeakable hardship and ultimately emerged stronger. Today, Ukraine is a proud and independent nation, and the United States is grateful for the friendship between our peoples and the partnership between our nations As free peoples, we are united not only in our remembrance of those lost in the Holodomor, but in our shared determination to prevent such inhumanity from ever happening again.

I am sure that didn't make Putin and co. very happy.

Isn't Rahm Emanuel running for mayor in Chicago?

?????

Quite simple: The Obama Administration has been notably silent about Ukraine for the past two years. In fact, it has pretty much ignored our relations with the former Communist countries, except when snubbing them. The main focus has been on "resetting" relations with Russia, which in practice has meant turning a blind eye to Russian human rights abuses and Russian interference in the affairs of neighboring states in the "near abroad"--particularly Ukraine. Obama has also said nothing at all about authoritarianism and disregard for rule of law that has characterized the Yanukovich government--one of whose principal policies has been downplaying Holodomor and writing it off as good intentions gone awry.

But now, Obama crony Rahm Emanuel is running for mayor in Chicago, a city with a large Ukrainian community, and suddenly we get a statement out of the Administration about Holodomor.

As Pravada used to say, "It is no coincidence".

Forgive my cynicism, but having lived in the DC area for close to forty years, I have come to recognize words are dirt cheap. Actions count. Policies count. Without action, without a change of policy, the Obama statement is just empty, meaningless words.

Stuart

Thanks for clearing up the reference. I must admit this thread reminded me of my days as an undergraduate math major when the professor having run out of blackboard to put equations on would say "it is intuitively obvious" and write down some completely inexplicable result.

I suspect your take on this is right. The statement is neither a coincidence nor a miracle. Now if we could only see the wink and the nod that accompanied the statement when the Russians saw it.

I think the full quote is "It is intuitively obvious to the casual observer. . . "

That conveys the full meaning of "You are a bunch of dodos. Why do I have to teach a survey course even though I have tenure?"