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Originally posted by Joe T:
"... isn't this guy an eastern bishop? Where is the idea of mortal sin in eastern thought?"

David,

You might find it in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church."

Originally posted by Joe T:
"Strange, aren't you the same Joe that berated me and attacked me for using the Catechism in defense of my arguments?"

David,

You didn't get my point.

Originally posted by Memo Rodriguez:
Hello:

I think that we have basically two different points of view:

Those who, like Bishop John Michael see this war as mass murder and those who, like President Bush see it as a legitimate act of self-defense.

My own position is that, if what President Bush said last night is the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then he would be correct in his evaluation of Hussein as a threat that needs to be dealt with.

However, I seriously doubt that the condition is met. I have a very good degree of certitude that what we heard last night was not the whole truth. President Bush avoided talking about the other agenda, the oily agenda of this war, and he also failed to mention his own personal desire for retrubution against a character he considers a family enemy.

And then in remains to be seen if what he told the American people is indeed the truth. At this point, the only way to show the world evidence of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction would be their use against the US forces or their allies.

As soon as US troops invade Iraq, the integrity of the "crime scene" is compromised and all "evidence" of such weapons "found" thereafter becomes suspect.

Applying American criminal prosecution principles, Iraq is to be considered innocent of now having and be willing to use WMDs until the contrary is demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt.

Meanwhile I will follow my Church in our prayer and effort for peace, and I will join my voice to those who, like Bishop John Michale, think this war is wrong.

May the Lord God have mercy on us all.

Shalom,
Memo.

Originally posted by Joe T:
David,

I'm just confused with the litany of CCC quotes coming from someone who states that the mission of Eastern Catholics is to "disappear." If this means becoming incorporated into Orthodoxy, then why use the CCC for other arguments? Is there no Orthodox teaching to quote?

Bishop Boteans' Lenten Message

18 March 2003

In an astounding statement, Bp. John Michael Botean, Eparch of the Romanian Catholic Eparchy of Saint George in Canton, OH, purports to declare authoritatively that the pending US-led attack on Iraq is absolutely immoral and has forbidden his subjects (basically 5,000 Romanian Catholics in the US) to take part in it. While the statement has, I believe, many substantive flaws and errors in it (see below), it is not my purpose to critique the statement itself, but rather to highlight some important canonical issues it raises. Citations here are to the 1990 Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (CCEO) that governs Eastern Catholics.

The bishop's statement clearly invokes, and provokes, fundamental questions of Christian rights and duties because of the following points:

* Eastern Catholics are bound to follow what their bishops declare as teachers of the faith (CCEO 15 � 1), though this obligation is qualified by the phrase "conscious of their [the faithful's] own responsibility."

* Individual Eastern bishops are to be regarded as authentic teachers of the faith for those entrusted to their care and the faithful must adhere to that teaching with a "religious obsequium" of soul (CCEO 600). The canon expressly states, however, that individual bishops are not infallible.

* One who disobeys an Eastern bishop can be subject to sanctions for that disobedience (CCEO 1446). Bp. Botean does not threaten canonical sanctions, but warns of "incalculable temporal and eternal consequences" should his letter be ignored.

On the other hand, and in addition to the qualifications already contained in some of the above provisions, we should note that:

* Eastern Catholics have the right to, among other things, make known their opinions on matters pertaining to the good of the Church and to make their opinions known to others (CCEO 15 � 3). There is no doubt that public statements by Catholic hierarchs on issues related to just war theory, the duties of citizens toward their nations, and the obligations of Catholics to their bishops, would be legitimate topics of discussion.

* An Eastern bishop who misuses his high office can be subjected to sanctions for that misuse (CCEO 1464 � 1).

The eparch's statement is unprecedented for its clarity and starkness; it simply must be read to appreciate this point, though fair-minded readers can admit that it is not a peacenik, blame-America-first harangue, but is instead a reasoned (though, I think, wrongly) exercise of conscience. It cannot be issued, however, and then forgotten. If Bishop Botean is correct, his argumentation would seem to apply to all Catholics, and only an inexcusable lack of pastoral solicitude on the part of other Eastern and Latin bishops could account for them not following suit immediately. If, on the other hand, Bishop Botean is wrong, then he has placed his faithful in a profound and direct conflict of conscience between their ecclesiastical and civil leaders, which, I suggest only an inexcusable lack of pastoral solicitude would suffer them to remain in.

Bishop Botean having no superior short of the Holy See, I believe his extraordinary statement must be ratified or rejected by the Holy See without delay (CCEO 1060-1061).

Just One Example

I realize it is easy to say "There are many things wrong with this document, but I don't have time to show you." Well, there are many things wrong with it, and I don't have the time to discuss them. But I will give one example. Bishop Botean writes: "Unjust killing is by definition murder." This is wrong. There are many kinds of unjust killing: some of them are unintentional accidents and we call them manslaughter, not murder. It is still an unjust killing, but both law and sound Catholic moral theology recognize a diminished culpability and do not treat such acts as murder. This important distinction, left unvoiced by Bp. Botean, is enough to show a serious flaw in a major point of his paper. +++

Originally posted by Brian:
Will we EVER expect a Thumb's up from David????

Originally posted by Joe T:
David,

I was quoting Bishop John Michael.