www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall I Am Secretly a Celtophile

This is a good day to make a public confession: although I am one part Byzantine Slav and one part Italian Roman Catholic I am actually a Celtophile at heart! What I mean is that I love all things Celtic - the ancient monasticism, saints, Celtic crosses, artwork, calligraphy, music. Many people claim to be "Irish for the day" but since my affinity runs so deep I wonder if I may actually have Irish ancestry? Would anyone like to comment on this? I have heard that the Celts sojourned into Slavic lands many centuries ago. Perhaps that's the connection. Am I alone in feeling this way?

I'll pray for your cure!
Stephanos I
One who sojourned there for a long long time.

All Celt O'Philes are at least honorary Irish.

Some may share ancestry in a distant way.

St. Andrew is known as the founder and patron of Churches in the Eastern Mediterranean, throughout what became the Byzantine Empire.

In legend, at least, he planted a cross overlooking the Dnieper River and prophesied the building of a great city there (Kyiv).

He has also become known as the patron Saint of Scotland.

The peoples of Scotland and Ireland have been mixing and moving for many centuries.

There is clearly some kind of cultural link between eastern Christianity and the Celtic peoples.

So you may be Slavic and have a common ancestor with the Irish.



O'Philes are OK!


John

I am ok with it. I have no Irish ancestors, but both sides of my mother's family were Scottish. They came to this region over 200 years ago. So St. Andrew, or St. Patrick - they are both great.

Charles,

We all know that the Scottish are just Irish who got off the boat before the last stop - they just got a wee bit of a fright when they heard the bosun yell 'Scotland, ... next stop - Heaven'

Many years,

Neil

possible but it would be negligible, european genes differ relatively dramatically (but due to breeding with females of common genetic type everyone from Europe looks white) .

In ancient times Galicia was Celtic, indeed that is where the name derives from (along with Galicia in Spain and Galatia in Turkey) the populations were largely dispersed with the "arrival" of the Slavs.

Every person has a gene whats called a mtdna haplogroup, which is a gene directly inherited from ones mother (who gets it from her mother, and her mother gets it from her mother etc)

Those also a similar gene that one gets from the father, and he from his father etc unique to males called the y-haplogroup. There is a clear difference between Western Europeans and Eastern Europeans in this regard.


Now compare the (as I call it) "Celtic" y-haplogroup gene R1b, carried by about 80-95% of Irish, British, French, basques (who unrelated note are closest relatives to ancient Britons which is why some british people have dark complexion), and northern Spaniards

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tR4bYTcAq...hXfgPcpCk/s1600/r1b-dna-distribution.jpg

to a map of historic habitation of the celts
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5894/keltearlymap9jw.gif

as you can see they match


Slavs on the other hand are later arrivals from India to Europe than Western Europeans, emerging in written records in around 500AD (though certainly they existed before, probably coming from south asia via central asia between 6,000-18,000 years ago) from the Scythians whom themselves emerged from the mysterious Kurgan mound builders. One can examine the pagan art in ancient Iran and the steppes of south Siberia/Kazakhstan (Kazakhstan was before turkic tribes Iranian Scythians/Kurgan mound builder territory) and find identical matched to pagan Slavic art

now look at the Slavic R1a gene in Europe (if dosent link copy and paste to your search bar)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/7/7b/20100427005205!R1A_map.jpg

here is a world map of the R1a gene
http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipe...ibution.png/300px-R1a1a_distribution.png

R1a is much newer than R1b, R1b is ancient enough that unlike R1a it has lots of mutations. This allows scientists to match sometimes the exact village your paternal ancestor came from. Not so with R1a, using a basic test I, being R1a with Slavic ancestry, will match exactly with a west bengal brahmin (thats eastern border of india) where as I would not come close period to an Irishman.


oh back to your question, hehe, about 25% of people in galacia are R1b, so you may take comfort that your direct paternal great-grandfather x80 may have been a celt.

Dear Litvin, O.K., so what about my Italian mother having red hair?! There's gotta be a Celt in my family tree somewhere, not only fruits and nuts!

I think they stopped in Scotland because the whiskey was better.

It seems to me that there was a fairly recent discovery (a decade or two ago) that a dark hair Mediterranean and blondes from I forget which group (Scandinavian?) could produce red-headed offspring, even though neither pool could do it independently--retroactively vindicating who-knows how many wives wrongly accused of bearing a child from adultery.

As for my wife, her red hair used to come from Irish genes.

Hey I resemble that remark!

Celtic Toes

Your toes will tell you if you are a Celt!

This article that I'm attaching here doesn't quite accurately describe Celtic toes. Basically, Celtic toes are characterised by the second (and often the third) toes being level with or extending beyond the end of the big toes. In non-Celtic sets of toes the big toe is always well in front of the others which shape away at a sharp angle. If you have Celtic toes you definitely have Celtic ancestry. If you don't, you may still have Celtic ancestry but your toes came from another side of the family tree.

Just for the record, I have Celtic toes, from either my Irish or Cornish ancestry, or both.

Blessings upon your toes, Celtic or otherwise.


You are your own "best evidence"
http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/beth/scottish_genealogy.htm

Father Ambrose:

Father bless!!

What if that's true on one foot and not the other? What does that mean?

Bob

Send photographs.

Any other bodily parts asymetrical?

Being myself fully Irish on both sides of the family, I feel safe in asserting that you are welcome amongst us.

The Celts are not actually a race anyway, although we do have certain aspects of common history and two divisions (the P-Celts and the Q-Celts) of our linguistic commonality.

Come to Ireland and learn Irish.

(An tAth.) Brian O'Ceileachair
Dublin

This conversation has taken a very interesting turn!

Signed,
Anna O'Bunion

Father Ambrose:

Love your sense of humor. After I was injured on the job in 1993, the doctors took x-rays of every part of me. The only thing I can say is that I know God has a tremendous sense of humor because I seem to be constructed of all the mismatched parts left over in His creation bin. Nothing matches; no mirror images.

Bob

Genetically, 80% of all Western Europeans are descended from the first wave of hunter-gatherers who came north following the last ice age. The remaining 20% are descended from a second wave of migration from Mesopotamia and the Near East, which brought agriculture into Europe. All the subsequent waves of migration--Celtic, Germanic, Slavic--may have changed the populations culturally, but had little genetic impact. In the British Isles and Ireland in particular, you are who you were.

Take, for example, Cheddar Man, a 5000-year old skeleton found in a cave near Cheddar in England. Scientists were able to extract DNA from the dentine in his teeth, and a direct lineal descendant of the man in the cave was found living in a town only a few miles away.

I wonder if there's any substantial connection between the Celts and the Baltic peoples, who are not - as far as I know - classified as Slavs.

The Celts are not actually a race anyway, although we do have certain aspects of common history and two divisions (the P-Celts and the Q-Celts) of our linguistic commonality.

Is that the origin of having to watch one's P's and Q's?

Father, bless!

Hmm, I've always known I was a bit more than half Irish.

Now I know that it's my right side:


[Linked Image]
But my third left toe is longer than the left large toe.

Does this indicate 5/8, or 3/4???





No, but I have "football player's toe" on both feet, in spite of never having worn a football cleat . . .

When did the hobbit get on this forum?!

Alas, no, that is not the origin of the injunction to mind one's P's and Q's!

Hobbits turn up in many unexpected places.

(An tAth.) Brian O'Ceileachair

Dear Secret Celtophile,

Dia s Mhuire duit - agus Padraig!

I am happy to report that yesterday (17 March on the Julian Calendar) our parish in Dublin offered the Divine Liturgy in Irish, in honor and veneration of Saint Patrick.

"Tir gan teanga - tir gan anam"

Come and see us now and then.

(An tAth.) Brian O'Ceileachair

None (genetically speaking), Balts and Celts arrived in opposite sides of Europe from different directions and from different origins several thousand years apart

Balts (Lithuanians and Latvians) are not Slavs but Balts, though genetically and linguistically there is a (very) distant common origin, how much common is debated


...To Anna, Ancient Celts were only present northern most regions of modern Italy, regardless maternally it is a possibility though unlike male y-haplogroups, female mtdna haplogroups are much less diverse across Europe so ethnicity is harder to detect, and keep in mind it would be very deluded, if I moved to Africa and married an Africa woman and all my descendants would marry Africans my great-grandson x20 would still test as coming from Eastern Europe by virtue of me and my ancestors. Likewise if my African wife would come to Europe to the part where I come and all my female descendants marry Europeans my great-granddaughter x20 would test as coming from Africa

God help me according to my toes I seem to be Irish!
Stephanos I
And here I thought I was a pure Norwegian!

Dear secret Celtophile,

If you will be able, come and join us for the midnight service on Pascha (Saturday to Sunday). We're probably serving in the larger church at Clonliffe.

Beidh failte romhat!

An tAth Brian

Plan to be in Ireland this July for the class 25th celebration.
If I am in Dublin I will certainly try to make it.
What are the times of DL?
Stephanos I
And where is the Sunday Liturgy normally held?

Divine Liturgy at 10 AM in the small church at Clonliffe - which is tricky to find, so call me. You will be very welcome.

Fr. Serge

I have been to Clonliffe before.
I am looking into booking my ticket soon. The reunion has been set for the 13th and 14th and then I am heading up to Dublin and on over to the UK, will let you know as soon as I find out more information.
Stephanos I