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Dec 29th, 2019
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Originally posted by J Thur:
TG,
Some of us have promulgated liturgies and follow our bishops. We move on. We haven't used green or gray "pew" books (with High Mass notes and directions when to kneel) from ages unto ages.
Joe [/QB] Fantastic! If more churches would obey the bishops, instead of just "making it up as they go along," the Latin Rite would always and everywhere be celebrated with the dignity and respect it deserves - just as, from what I've seen in the space of a few short weeks, the Divine Liturgy is already. If that long-winded sentence makes any sense. 
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Originally posted by Concerned Byzantine:
We should not be reinventing our Byzantine Liturgy to make it resemble a Roman Catholic Mass. It's a mad, mad, mad world. Do you prefer "pew" books that resemble Latin Tridentine High Masses instead? [KNEEL] [STAND] [KNEEL] [STAND] [KNEEL] [For High Mass] [STAND] [KNEEL] [STAND] [KNEEL] [For High Mass] [STAND]
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(Where's the **sigh** icon?
I think it's important to note that the translation is a different matter than the music, having been approved in Rome. I have expressed my views on the music elsewhere on this forum.
And I'm not sure who the "lifelong Roman Catholic" in question is. I know no one who meets that description.
I wish we could have all of these liturgical sky-is-falling threads in one place.
Tiredly,
Sharon
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Originally posted by Coalesco:
I have great confidence in the decisions of the church regarding these matters. Let's give them a little credit!
In Christ,
Michael Dear Michael, You have a very positive outlook and I agree with you 100%! 
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Originally posted by Theist Gal: Well, I will have to see it (and hear it) to believe that the changes are not only so drastic, but so distasteful, as to drive anyone away.
It can't possibly be any worse than the "Star-Spangled Mass" I was forced to attend this past 4th of July (church's name hidden to protect the guilty!). 
Dear TG: Aside from some minor textual changes (maybe?), what you have experienced ["seen (and heard)"] at the Cathedral of St. Mary and the pro-Cathedral of St Stephen is for all intents and purposes the so-called "new" Liturgy. The silent prayers that CB refers to are primarily the prayers of the anaphora or what the RC's refer to as the Eucharistic Prayer(s). In times past, the institution narrative and epiclesis were prayed "in secret" by the priest.
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Originally posted by bisantino:
[QUOTE]Dear TG:
Aside from some minor textual changes (maybe?), what you have experienced ["seen (and heard)"] at the Cathedral of St. Mary and the pro-Cathedral of St Stephen is for all intents and purposes the so-called "new" Liturgy. The silent prayers that CB refers to are primarily the prayers of the anaphora or what the RC's refer to as the Eucharistic Prayer(s). In times past, the institution narrative and epiclesis were prayed "in secret" by the priest. Really? Well, then for heaven's sake, what's all the fuss about? Because the Liturgies I've attended at St. Stephen's and St. Mary's were beautiful, reverent and (to my inexperienced and untrained eyes, anyway) *very* different from the Roman Catholic Mass. Thanks for clarifying that . Looks more and more like this is just the Byzantine version of the anti-"Novus Ordo" discussions that keep popping up at my R.C. chat sites!
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 I am mad about these changes also! I hate what the Church is doing! The Bishops are going to KILL the Church one Liturgy at a time! God Save Us From Our Bishops!
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Originally posted by Theist Gal: Really? Well, then for heaven's sake, what's all the fuss about?
Looks more and more like this is just the Byzantine version of the anti-"Novus Ordo" discussions that keep popping up at my R.C. chat sites! Yup! We have to pray for those still struggling with an identity problem. I don't know how anyone can state with a straight face that a prayer said aloud is a Roman Catholic practice. But there are many who have grown up and become attached to a High Mass adulteration of the Byzantine Liturgy. Many of their temples are fitted well for an SSPX Mass. They wouldn't know a Byzantine Liturgy if they tripped over it. Some of the most beautiful theology of our Byzantine Church are contained in the prayers, especially the Anaphora or Eucharistic Prayer. The Anaphora is to the Liturgy of the Eucharist like the Scriptures is to the liturgy of the Word. At least nobody has called reading the Scriptures aloud in the temple a Roman Catholic innovation or asked us to demand their silence! But if we stretched the argument a bit ... Some churches have some serious catching up to do: like restoring Infant Communion, omitting the Filioque, placing iconostases in their places of worship, doing away with the sale of brides as property in the churches ... Joe
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Originally posted by Johan S.:
God Save Us From Our Bishops! God bless our Bishops, who are the successors of the Apostles.
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I am surprised that such negativity of 'Johan S.' and 'Concerned' are allowed to continue. How do their posts serve to help the church?
Joe Thur
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AMDG
Johan & Concerned,
Pray, Pray, Pray. Pray and weep. And then smile--for the mysteries of Faith will be there, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.
LatinT.
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O.K., have some priestly prayers said out loud, why are the litanies being eliminated? Also, if we really are trying to Easternize our liturgy, why don't we find any of these "innovations" among our Orthodox counterparts (ACROGC,UOA,OCA)?
Ung-Certez
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Originally posted by Ung-Certez:
O.K., have some priestly prayers said out loud, why are the litanies being eliminated? Also, if we really are trying to Easternize our liturgy, why don't we find any of these "innovations" among our Orthodox counterparts (ACROGC,UOA,OCA)?
Ung-Certez Esteemed Ung-Certez, Your point is well taken, that we B.C.'s should act in concert with our "counterparts." But, then again, in decades of reading the Liturgical Theologians of Repute among our counterparts, I do not find one who would say that our shared Liturgy is not in need of reform. (This goes back to the 70's when, at conference of world-class Liturgists, Fr. Schmemann decried the "cuckoo clock" comings and goings of processions through the icon screen during the Liturgy.) Why can't Byzantine Catholics do strong, independent thinking that could (but, alas, will not) lead the way? Because it might be right for us in the Liturgical Tradition does not mean it may be objectively wrong with regard to that same shared Tradition, no?
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J Thur, I am surprised that such negativity of 'Johan S.' and 'Concerned' are allowed to continue. How do their posts serve to help the church?
Joe Thur Joe, No theology has been presented to justify these changes. I assume there is no theology other than personal preference. The liturgy is not a toy to be played with! St. John C. should sue the BCC for copyright infringement. If only he was alive!
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