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Dec 29th, 2019
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Originally posted by Johan S.:
No theology has been presented to justify these changes. I assume there is no theology other than personal preference. The liturgy is not a toy to be played with! One only has to take a peek inside half the temples in one church jurisdiction to see what 100 years of 'personal preference' has done to us. What was the theological justification for having so many temples geared for a Latin Tridentine High Mass? What is the theological justification for excommunicating infants who were Baptized and Chrismated? Should the Roman Catholic Church sue us for plagiarism? St. Basil should have sued St. John too. And the Antiochians should have sued them both. Joe
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J Thur,
They are all wrong! Our liturgy should never have been changed in the first place. Two wrongs don't make a right!
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Originally posted by Johan S.:
They are all wrong! Johan, Everyone is wrong except Johan S. What Pope canonized the gray pew book version as the perpetual Mass? It is quite obvious that the authorities of this website will not censor the whining on this issue, but instead, will allow it to fester. Joe
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Originally posted by Theist Gal:
I keep hearing about all these changes that are supposedly coming to the Byzantine liturgy, but so far no one has given me any specific examples of what exactly has changed.
Perhaps you could provide just one example of what you think is going to drive people away? Thanks! Theist Gal, I'll show you what the "uproar" is about on Sunday. This seems like "much ado about nothing". Steve
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Originally posted by bisantino: Originally posted by Theist Gal: [b] Well, I will have to see it (and hear it) to believe that the changes are not only so drastic, but so distasteful, as to drive anyone away. It can't possibly be any worse than the "Star-Spangled Mass" I was forced to attend this past 4th of July (church's name hidden to protect the guilty!). 
Aside from some minor textual changes (maybe?), what you have experienced ["seen (and heard)"] at the Cathedral of St. Mary and the pro-Cathedral of St Stephen is for all intents and purposes the so-called "new" Liturgy. The silent prayers that CB refers to are primarily the prayers of the anaphora or what the RC's refer to as the Eucharistic Prayer(s). In times past, the institution narrative and epiclesis were prayed "in secret" by the priest. [/b]Bisantino, Actually the other difference beside the formerly silent prayers being said aloud is also in the settings of the music used, which our parishes don't yet use, though I have been slowly introducing the more "slavonic" setting to the existing translation during Saturday Liturgies. I have had the music for almost two years and want to avoid all this "mess: when/if Bishop William endorses the latest changes. Thanks for serving at the cathedral while you were here in Van Nuys!! It was one of the happiest liturgies I have felt in a while!  Steve Petach
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On the specific point raised by UC, it would be nice to hear from some OCA or ACROD folks. My experience is limited, but, as regards taking silent prayers aloud, the OCA priest (St. Vlad's educated) that I know takes aloud a longer than customary portion of the erstwhile silent prayer before the antiphons, as well as all the silent prayers from the anaphora through i vsich is vsja. Maybe Tony, Brian, Anastasios and others could give a sense of how widespread this practice is in the OCA. This alteration doesn't really change the dynamic rhythym of the liturgy too much, IMO. All the litanies are maintained, but with very brief responses. (Our Lord have mercies are 4x longer each - even if the temptation to drag is resisted. I suspect that there there is connection between this dilation and the tendency to take these silently.)
What about the music? Can someone please tell me how I can get my hands on some? There are likely to be glitches. I am sure that constructive criticism will be valued. On the other hand, nasty remarks are of little value, and are not going to have impact. It's hear to guess the what CB menas when writing that it "more like the old Latin chant then it does like our Carpatho-Rusyn plainchant". Does this mean too much of a choral vs. song style? That choral settings are too western in their harmonic progressions? That melodies go back to pre-Bokshaj settings that with flatted "ti" sound more "modal"? The objective was updating to American sensibilites vs. restoring (Bokshaj) consensus practice? Or does it just mean, I don't like it, and Roman/Latin is a handy epithet.
For those who recognize Bokshaj and have heard the new music: it is faithful or not?
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Why do I have the feeling that the "revised Liturgy" that Van Nuys has resembles in NO WAY the "revised Liturgy" of Passaic? I have no problem with reading (preferably chanting) the Anaphora aloud, but all those other "silent prayers" at the ends of ektenias and before other doxologies, RECITED in plain voice no less, are really a trial. This is one "experiment" that should have been terminated as soon as it began, before the rats started fleeing the lab. (This rat wandered back into the lab yesterday morning, and between the butchered Slavonic pronunciation of the choir, the endless recitation of priestly prayers, "With wisdom let us profess our Faith", the lay readers reading the epistle from the ambo, the dozen servers stuffed into a tiny sanctuary (talk about the over-clericalization of the Liturgy!) and 75% of the clueless "Byzantines" kneeling in a parish that has followed the "no kneeling on Sundays" custom for over 20 years, I've about had it.)  Steve, surely these aren't the same "revisions" that you're dealing with... please tell me they aren't!
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Originally posted by Johan S.:
J Thur,
They are all wrong! Our liturgy should never have been changed in the first place. Two wrongs don't make a right! Johan S. The people leaving the parishes is more a symptom of people who can not tolerate change even though they sing an english liturgy which was changed from the slavonic translation at the outset. Ever notice that we don't sing "... now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen" just "...now and ever and forever. Amen". The words don't fit the meter of the original slavonic so things were changed....back in the 1960's!!!!!! The "Slava Otcu I Synu I Svjatomo Duchu...". in the "Svjaty Boze" was originally sung to the same melody. now it is just a straight boring tone, this has gone on for THIRTY plus years!!!!! Maybe all of us cantors should just leave these poor, undeserving, whining people to suffer in recited liturgies or silence. I am thankful that the parish where I attend and occaisionally cantor, (excuse me, chant) SINGS (and I do mean SINGS) the creed!!!!  Why worry about whether women chant the epistle? Why worry about women cantors (cantorkas?) Why worry about tonsured readers? Why have choirs and cantors? Why change what people don't WANT changed? Why whine about what others find delightful? Why no more slavonic liturgies with silent anaphoras? Why no more vespers, matins in so many parishes? Why plainchant? 
DO we go to church to worry about such ABSOLUTELY PETTY things in the grand scheme of things or to pray for the salvation of our souls which most certainly need it!!!  Just my worthless $.00002 Steve Without change life is not.
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Someone mentioned that the litnies are now gone.And my question is what will the roll be for the Deacon in these changes?
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Originally posted by djs:
Maybe Tony, Brian, Anastasios and others could give a sense of how widespread this practice is in the OCA. djs, I would be happy to in another thread or privately but not in the midst of this libelous, scandalous mess.
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Please do Tony.
It might be especially informative to hear about liturgical training at St. Vlad's. In particular on the "silent" prayers.
djs
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I don't know if this is libelous or not. I just wish I understood the complaints. I love our Church and I believe Father is bringing us back to Eastern spirituality. But I don't know very much. Help us understand what the perceived problems are.
Dan Lauffer
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John Member
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Note to Forum Participants:
The Byzantine Forum welcomes discussions on all topics. We only ask that they be conducted in the spirit of Christian charity. The possible revisions to our Divine Liturgy (texts, rubrics and music, some of which are already promulgated in certain eparchies) are certainly a very worthy topic for discussion. Please strive at all times to keep the simple rule of charity. We do not wish to be forced to delete threads because of excessive negativity and incivility.
I am going to close this thread. Please begin new threads under appropriate titles if you wish to continue a discussion on this topic.
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