www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Mini-Rant

The sacraments, like society and the law, are made for man. There is no theological reason why these should not go hand in glove. In societies where the Church was free to flourish, this has most often been the case.

If current trends continue what you are saying WILL be reality. However, the sacrament of marriage as well as all of the beatitudes, the ten commandments,... all of them provide the Best moral structure and compass for society. I personally think that it is in the best interests for the US Government to have good, moral(Christian) families! It makes sense in long term strategic planning. Like it or not, the family is the cornerstone of society, too alter it may have dire consequences. This may be a moot point, perhaps its already too late. Or maybe not.

I would not say it is bailing out of the public square, but of carving out a space within it and saying, "This is ours, and we will not yield, no matter what you do". Wholesale separation of the Church from state institutions would simultaneously point out the huge role played by the Church in the delivery of social services, while allowing the Church to say what it wants and do what it wants. It should not take a single dime from the government, because "he who pays the piper gets to call the tune". It is apparent that conscience clauses are likely to be overturned, which will really leave us no choice. I should particularly like the Church to celebrate sacramental marriages for couples who eschew civil marriages, if by marriage the state is going to specify a type of relationship contrary to the Church's notion of marriage.

It is easy to forget that, until well after Constantine, Church marriage and civil marriage were entirely separate. The former was the spiritual union of a man and a woman, the latter a contractual relationship between them. It was the sixth century before the existence of a Church marriage was considered evidence for the existence of a civil marriage. It was the ninth century before the Church was given oversight of all aspects of marriage, both civil and sacramental. That relationship was mutually beneficial until recently. We are now entering the post-Constantinian era, where the values of the state and the values of the Church are no longer compatible. "Symphonia" is no longer possible, so we must revert to the pre-Constantinian situation of being "in" society without being "of" society.

I agree with your assessment of the situation of the Church in relation to the state. Certainly it will come to this. It is well on its way where I am, but I don't see how abandoning marriage as a legal arrangement as well as sacramental is a way to accomplish the goals of the Church.

Well, from a practical standpoint, the state is in a position to impose certain demands on the Church as the price for allowing it to execute marriage licenses, just as it does for allowing the Church to administer child services, adoption services, and health care services. As I noted, conscience clauses are increasingly challenged and overturned by a militantly secular court system, which is why, e.g., the Church no longer provides adoption services in Massachusetts. If the state can demand the Church not discriminate against gay couples in adoption, it can do the same with regard to gay couples or divorcees in marriage.

So, cutting the tie allows us to say clearly, regardless of what the state calls marriage, this is what WE call marriage, and we will not compromise on it.

More subversively, the state discriminates against marriage in the tax code, in health insurance and in social security. Allowing people to marry in the Church without marrying in the eyes of the law would allow them to evade the marriage penalty, or to collect more in social security, or to obtain more extensive health and welfare services than would be possible if they were legally married.

In the early Church, few Christians could legally marry, since civil marriage was the purview of Roman citizens. So, the Church did its thing, and set an example of chastity and fidelity not matched by their pagan neighbors. "See", said Tertullian (easily one of my least favorite ante-Nicene Fathers), "how much better we Christians behave towards our women, than do you who call yours wives". He had a good point.

Personally, I think the secularist will come after us regardless what we do, until we capitulate to their changes regarding our theology! SO,...let them force change! Force them to try to legitimize what they want in pubic debate, and we can be right there to make the Christian counter argument.

Actually, there is no counter-argument. The state has a monopoly on armed force and will apply coercive measures. It will simply shut down or impoverish the Church, and there will be no other argument than the one we make with our bodies as witnesses to Christ. They probably won't kill us, but they can bankrupt us and put us in prison. And our only response will be to go, joyfully, praising Christ for all his blessings.

This will, of course, drive the secularists nuts.

On the subject of Marriage Tertullian is probably my favortie ante-Nicene Father. This passage has found its way into many a Wedding homily

I suppose you are in the United States where freedom of religion still has a place in the discussion. Here, they are shutting out the Church from much ordinary participation in public life, and penalizing her organizations for upholding Christian practices, quite without reference to funding.

Once we start paying fed taxes- those small churches you like may not make it. Those social services we provide like schools, counseling, adoption, etc.., many of those services will be cut and fewer and fewer people will see any benefit. Our relevance in society will diminish and with it a platform to spread the Good News! Now you will have a much smaller group of purified Christians, but it will stay that way, a small group of marginalized Christians for a very long time! And in that time, many souls will have never had a chance to hear and learn the good news. I wouldn't give an inch to the secularists!

In regards to the original post, its ok to have large wedding. Now, I also understand those pastors point of view when it seems like you are shopping for a venue and then never come back. So please don't feel offended, those pastors are trying to do what is best for their parishes. If I were you, I'd follow the advice previously given, talk to your pastor.

The planned guest list for my daughter's wedding was larger than our church could hold.

For reasons never explained to me, though, we have a second consecrated altar outside on the patio, dedicated to the Theotokos. The grooms family actually made a make-shift iconostasis from fabric and hung it from the patio cover, andqwe set up outside.

It worked so well that we now do this each year for Pascha, which would be tight, at best, indoors (although we don't hang the fabric, and satisfy ourselves with the portable icons).

We've shared the facilities with other catholic an orthodox over the years. Until. Couple of years ago, a Syrian group nted every Sunday, and a mother orthodox group monthly--which made for a tight Good Friday schedule . . .

On an aside - can you post pictures of the fabric iconostasis? I would love to learn how to do it/commission such a work for my parish - although we don't use iconostasis, we could hang it behind the altar as an icon wall of sorts!

I'll try and find them n the pictures of my daughter's wedding, but it was rather simple--we used a translucent lint blue fabric, I think in the width they came off the bolt. We hung them to the sides of the space left open for the deacons' doors, and also betray the decans' door and the Holy Doors, also simply an opening.

In front of these we placed the two portable icons.

Since then, we haven't hung the screen. They're not that practical, and we are at risk of high winds and/or rain at Pascha. Rain would make th interesting, as we would have tro uble fitting the Pascha crowd Ito the church . . . And when I say "high" winds,I mean 50-100 mph.