www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Marian Dogma - Defining too much

Hello every buddy,
I was wondering what your thoughts are on the
undefined dogmas of mary such as...

1. Co-redemptrix
2. Mediatrix "of all graces"

What do you think about these? I find them grounds for conversion to Orthodoxy.

In Christ +
Daniel

No and no.

Logos Teen

P.S. New avatar- - -say hello the Michael the Archangel

Daniel,

Your post is confusing. You are considering embracing Orthodoxy (not in communion with Rome) because of theological perspectives that Rome has clearly rejected?

Admin

Dear: Admin

Slava Isusu Christu!

No im not thinking of Emracing Orthodoxy.
What do you mean a theological pespective that
rome as rejected. I was reading a few documents and talking to a few clergy that were telling me the H.H. JP II was going to define these two dogmas but was advised not too. EWTN in their Doctrines webs tie list it as a teaching of the church.

In Christ +
Daniel

Embracing*

Daniel,

Pope John Paul II stated at least five years ago that he was not about to proclaim Mary as �Co-Redemptrix� and pretty much closed off the debate on the issue.

The theology of �Co-Redemptrix� may be unnecessary but it is not heretical. The term �co� means �together with� not �equal to�. All Christians are called to work together with Christ to redeem the world. Mary is simply the first �co-redeemer�. Think about this in terms of St. John Chrysostom�s words that the saddest thing in the world is a Christian who has no concern for the salvation (redemption) of his fellow man.

�Mediatrix �of all graces�" means simply that the Theotokos can intercede for us in all things. This is perfectly orthodox and Orthodox. Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24) but his Mother can and does mediate for us before her Son and God through her prayers.

Yes, there are those who continue to work towards having these theological perspectives proclaimed dogmatically.

Admin

Dear: Admin

What ive been reading on Roman Catholic Web sites,
about the Mediatrix of all graces, is that basically we are the body of the chirst mary is the neck and christ is the head, as said by St. Louis De Monfort, he said that all graces go through and from mary 1st, which really down plays the importance of christ which i believe to be heretical.

In Christ +
Daniel

Daniel,

There are plenty of wonderful saints who are less than excellent theologians. More often than not something they said is taken out of context and used to support a quite different theological point.

It�s also very difficult to discern between good theology and bad theology on religious message boards. Don�t believe everything you read.

Always look to the Church to learn what she teaches.

I don�t know anything about St. Louis De Monfort but it seems fair to interpret his comment (if it is quoted accurately) in light of the Gospel �I am the vine; you are the branches.� (John 15:5) The Theotokos is most certainly going to be a branch that is especially close to Christ�s heart.

Admin

Daniel,

I think you should really consider what you have just written .

Please withdraw the word herectical.

St Louis de Montfort never wrote anything heretical in his life.

Do please remember also that the Holy Father himself reccommends his work.

Have you read Redemptoris Mater ? - If not please do

Saying that graces comes only through mary to me
down plays the Role of Christ and Glorifys mary beyond her purpose. I know many Eastern Christians agree with these to points especially about the mediatrix of all graces and co-redember.

In Christ +
daniel

Daniel (BA),

You are pretty dogmatic about all this--can you explain why it is an affront to Christ, if He chooses to distribute graces by the hand of His Mother?

LatinTrad

Our Lady Mediatrix of all graces, pray for us!

Daniel,

Can you share with us the specific text of St. Louis de Montfort from which you formed the conclusion that he is teaching that grace comes only through Mary? My guess (until you provide a specific reference) is that that the quote should come from St. Louis de Montfort�s �Treatise On True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin�. [ewtn.com] I just read through the version posted on the EWTN website and I see nothing like you are accusing of St. Louis de Monfort of teaching.

Please let us know the text (and a web URL if you have one).

If I have misunderstood your post and you are merely suggesting that some people on other forums are making such a claim than I can only advise that you avoid such places and not worry about them.

Admin

Dear Daniel,

I am a devotee of St Louis de Montfort's spirituality, as is Pope John Paul II (and Angela and others here).

Pope John Paul II's entire ministry is based on the teaching and insights of St Louis de Montfort.

That the Grace of Christ is mediated to us through His Humanity in His Body that is the Church composed of the Most Holy Mother of God and the Saints, as well as us sinful ones - this is solid Orthodox and Catholic doctrine.

If we do not hold to this, we are outside the Church.

Grace is always mediated - that is why Christ became Man through the Virgin Mary.

What you have said is also a tacit denial of the role of the Communion of Saints.

We are here to help you, not to condemn you.

But you must allow yourself to be helped in your struggles with the faith.

Alex

Dear Daniel,

First of all, as you are not a bishop, there is no need to put a Cross + after your screen name.

Secondly, what Orthodox object to is the definition of Marian dogmas.

In the rich liturgical treasure of the Byzantine East, there are MANY prayers in which the Mother of Christ our God is praised as the one who suffered in her heart and soul all that Christ suffered for our salvation.

All Grace comes to us through Our Lady and the Saints of necessity, by their prayers.

We are to pray for one another always and so we too are mediators of Christ's Redemption and Sanctification in the world.

And that means you too.

Alex

Dear Daniel,

Do visit this site: www.montfortmissionaries.com [montfortmissionaries.com] and go to their "share your thoughts" section.

There just might be something you will find of interest there, especially from the Eastern Church perspective.

Alex