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I dont pray the rosary, id perfer the Akathist.
Im an Easternizer. You proabley would have made a good priest, but i still dont agree with thouse doctrines. I know many Orthodox Laity and one Orthodox Monk priest who agrees with me.
In Christ
Daniel
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Orthodox Catholic Toddler Member
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Certainly, the Mother of God and the Saints can gain for us certain graces through our veneration of them and our requests of their generosity to pray for us.
In a general, universal sense, the Saints are always praying for us as part of the Divine Economia - as are all members of the Church, on earth and in the next life.
Everything comes to us from the Father through the Son by means of the Holy Spirit, as we know, and at the intercessions of the Mother of God, the Angels and the Saints, and the entire Church that is the Communion of Saints that we also affirm in the Creed.
God Himself chose to save us through the act of Mediation of His Incarnate Son. God comes to us where we are, as we are, and by means of others.
The intercession of all the Saints is the Holy Spirit's affirmation that, yes, humanity is indeed saved and transfigured through Theosis.
The Saints are the Icon of the Holy Spirit Who works ceaselessly to deify us in Christ.
Christ lives in His Saints, as the Incarnate God He is, by means of the Holy Spirit.
As we know, our salvation not only depends on Christ and the intercession of the Saints - it also depends on our reaching out to the Incarnate Christ Who lives in the poor and suffering in this world and those Whom God deigns to send us so we may serve Christ in them.
God sends every grace of His to us through the Humanity of Christ. In so doing, He has empowered our Humanity to receive it and does so especially through the Mother of God and the Saints who are the first to be made Christ-like and who, following Christ, become bearers of Christ's Grace to us, with Him.
Alex This is the first time I have seen this stated so clearly, in terms I can accept. Therefore, I have nothing to add to this discussion. I would like to print this out and put it in a frame! Thanks Dr. Alex  Michael
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic: Dear Dolly,
Ah, yes, but I think that our best defence against atheist groupies like that is experiential, not intellectual.
It is more important to experience the Mother of God in prayer and meditation, liturgically and in private.
St Seraphim of Sarov once said, "Acquire the Spirit of Peace and a thousand souls will be converted around you."
Wasn't that nice? 
Alex Dear Alex, Yes, it's very nice, and I agree with you ... up to a point ... The problem is that we do have an Adversary who takes great delight in visiting gullible souls and imitating the Blessed Mother, the Saints and even Christ Himself; and without some sort of intellectual grounding in basic Church doctrine, it is VERRRYYY easy for those souls to be pulled off the path, and into a very scary place - and they DO take others with them! Anyway, wouldn't you agree that ideally this shouldn't be an "either or" situation (i.e., *either* experience *or* intellect) but a balance of both? The Breathing-With-Two-Lungs theory? Love, Dolly 
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Dr Alex? are you the Dr. Alex from the Ukranian Orthodox web site?
In Christ+
Daniel
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Dear ByzantineAscetic,
Yes, sir, I am.
Alex
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Dear Dolly,
Agreed,
It is just that in the West there tends to be an emphasis on intellectualization.
The East always includes the "lex orandi - lex credendi" rule and the liturgical tradition is the first and most important catechetical school for us.
One cannot be separated from the other and "Orthodox" means two things at once: "Right worship" and "Right belief" = what we believe is proclaimed through how we worship.
Reading is always important and necessary.
But our participation in the Life In Christ through the Church - how can we hope to be anointed with the Light of Mt Tabor to enlighten the world?
Alex
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Dear Michael, You are too kind! Will it be a 5 x 7 or an 8 x 10 frame? Alex
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Dear Daniel, ByzAscetic
I thought over your post about the Orthodox who agree with you etc. and spent some time last night examing a range of Orthodox liturgical texts.
I was again impressed with the way in which the mediatorship of the Mother of God and the Saints jumps up on each and every page of the Octoechos etc.
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, through the prayers of Thy Most Pure Mother and all Thy Saints, have mercy and save us."
That is a liturgical, not a private prayer, and is repeated in various other forms many times over.
What that says and confirms is simply that the Grace of God comes to us through His Deified Humanity and through those who have been made one with Him in faith and sanctity, beginning with the Mother of God.
Therefore, the Orthodox who say they disagree - are just being willfully ignorant, including that monk you mention.
It is sometimes the case that the Orthodox will go against something just because they perceive the Latins are up to something new . . .
And converts to Orthodoxy are the worst of all.
They have to build walls between Catholicism and Orthodoxy that are ten times higher than they really are, as I've said.
They reveal their own insecurities and continuing issues with the Western Church they have left - their continuing pain in having left the Church is evident in the nonstop invective they constantly hurl against it.
I wouldn't listen to what those poor people tell you and I would stay off their message boards.
Alex
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Dolly,
Agreed,
It is just that in the West there tends to be an emphasis on intellectualization.
And agreed, too much emphasis on EITHER side can be harmful. Which is why we need East AND West -- am I right? [deafening silence] I said, am I right? [embarrassed silence] Okay, everyone who thinks I'm WRONG, don't say anything! [confused silence] I knew it - I'm *always* right!
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The Monk Priest i mentioned is very intelligent and far from ignorant, but he is a ROCOR Priest so that would explain his reasoning, he is very nice suprislingly. I know that some grace comes from mary, i just dont like the Idea of "ALL GRACES" which Vatican II left out of their documents because they knew how much trouble it would cause. Thats what im worried about. I know about the liturgical text not all but some and intersession of the saints and the Holy Theotokos, is a true reality which i fully except.
Alex, i was the one who asked the recent question about the papacy on your web site not to long ago. I like your site its very intresting. Ive learned alot about Orthodoxys POV on certain issues its been helpfull.
Through the Holy Theotokos
Daniel
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Dear Dolly, The really good thing about being Catholic is that one can always be right - but only one guy is infallible. Perhaps it isn't a question of "East-West" but of natural balance of theory and praxis. After all, you Westerners were once Orthodox in the good old days prior to that temper tantrum in 1054 AD. You used to have an idea about balance . . . Alex
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Dear Daniel, Well, I don't mean "ignorant" in the bad sense . And ROCORites, if they perceive you are asking them about something RC's believe, will tend to do a knee-jerk and say, "Well, of course that is Latin heresy." They don't believe Catholics have grace and so are cut off from the Church etc. Be that as it may, the Saints are always praying for us, I think we can all agree on that. And also, all Grace from Christ is ALWAYS mediated to us. There is NO Grace that is not mediated to us through the Deified Humanity of Christ. Christ gives us His Grace by mediating it to us through the Church and Her Mysteries/Sacraments, through the Priests and Bishops (no Bishop = no Church), the Bible, the icons and, yes, the Apostles and their teaching ("Apostolic" Church). The Eastern Church is written with icons where there are all kinds of Saints and Angels, with the Mother of God interceding for us. We stand before Christ, His Heavenly Father and the Most Holy Spirit. And the Mother of God with the millions of Holy Angels and Saints stand with us, praying for us so that we may deepen our union with Christ and the Holy Trinity, "pushing us forward toward God" so to speak. And our prayer is made that much more powerful when it is part of the prayer of the Church and of the Communion of Saints. If your difficulty is about the idea of the Communion of Saints not coming between our relationship with the Holy Trinity - you've nothing to fear. The Holy Trinity comes to dwell in us as Its Temple. The Saints and the Church are there to hasten that goal. Alex
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To me it seems very clear.
1. God chose the Theotokos to be the mother of His Son!
2. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
3. Christ is the source of all grace.
4. Through Mary's co opperation with the divine will grace was given to humanity in order that we might be saved.
In her unique role as the Mother of God Mary has mediated all the grace of Her Divine Son.
She is not its cause but through her cooperation has brought it about.
How does this "cut out" Christ.
No this teaching establishes it.
Stephanos I
Through the prayer of the Mother of God, O Savior save our souls.
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Dear Arch-sinner Stephanos,
St Alphonsus Liguori would agree with you!
To paraphrase a Council's words: Peter has spoken through Stephanos!
Alex
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Leo XIII, Parta humano generi, Apostolic Letter, Sept 8, 1901, ASS 34, 1901, 195.
So may the most powerful Virgin Mother, who once 'cooperated in love that the faithful might be born in the Church', be even now the means and mediatrix of our salvation. [Citing St. Augustine, De sancta Virginitate 6.] See to me that doesnt sound right. Do all graces come from the most Holy Theotokos first? Why should they? Why not from Christ to us. Daniel
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