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Dear Daniel,

Well, one could ask, "Why not from God directly?"

Why did God have to assume our nature in becoming Man to die on the Cross etc.?

But it was His Will to save us and deify us precisely through the Incarnation of OLGS Jesus Christ.

By uniting Divinity with Humanity in Christ, God completely destroyed the separation between God and mankind, as well as the power of the devil's hold over us.

And He took that Humanity of His from the Virgin Mary. He came to us through Her.

And St Elizabeth in the Gospel of Luke FIRST praises the Virgin Mary: Blessed are you among women. And then she praises Christ: Blessed is the Fruit of your womb!

The Fathers see in Jacob's Ladder an image of the Virgin Mary, for she is the ladder by which God came down to us in Christ.

And, the Gospel says through Mary's Magnificat, "All generations shall call me blessed!" She is the ladder by which we ascend to Christ and His heavenly Kingdom.

Might I make a suggestion?

Since you like Akathists, as do I, I've written an Akathist to Our Lady as the "Heavenly Ladder" on this very theme.

You can find it on the "Byzantine Faith and Worship" section.

In becoming Man, Christ also opened to all of us the possibility to be deified in His Deified Humanity.

The Mother of God is the first among the Saints in this respect, owing to her awesome role in our salvation. John the Baptist is next.

Just as the Source of all Graces is the Incarnate Word of God, Crucified and Risen - so too is the Theotokos the channel by which that Grace is communicated, both in history (as Mother of the Redeemer) and now (as Mother of the Church, the Body of Christ).

Just as she nurtured Christ to His full stature, so too is she our Mother, given to us by Christ at the foot of the Cross (Behold your mother!). And at Cana in Galilee ("They have no more wine . . . Do whatever He tells you to").

She is the Mother of the Body of Christ, the Church and therefore our mother insofar as we are members of the Body of Christ, the Church.

And she nurtures us constantly "on the milk of grace" (St Louis de Montfort, our favourite writer . . .) wink

I've taken the above from Orthodox theologian John Meyendorff's work - just so you know it is legitimate . . . smile

Alex

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Dear Alex:

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After all, you Westerners were once Orthodox in the good old days prior to that temper tantrum in 1054 AD.
Didn't you mean ". . .you EASTERNERS were once CATHOLIC in the good old days . . .?" biggrin

AmdG

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What part of this undefined dogma i do accept is that the Holy Theotokos, would be Mediatrix of Grace. Notice I left out of "All Graces". I relize
that their are certain things in which Grace Comes directly from Christ, i.e. The Holy Mysteries.

No ive got to solve the Co-Redemptrix thing.

God Bless.
Daniel

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I am confused by certain things in reading this thread, and so for my benefit and hopefully to the benefit of this conversation, I'd like to make some remarks and pose some questions (the questions which I believe are key will be numbered for no other reason than that I think they should be numbered, but there will be more questions in the text than those that are numbered). This is very disorganised, and will seem repetitive since I'm basically going through the entire thread and commenting on certain things in order. Please bear with me.

It was said towards the beginning of this thread that EWTN lists the teachings of Mary as Co-Redemtrix and Mediatrix of All Grace as teachings of the Catholic Church. Not that EWTN is the be all and end all of Catholicism, but I remember hearing this some time ago on a documentary when it was said that a papally infallible definition could only be made for something that has always been believed by the Catholic Church, and so the movement arose to define this, basing itself partly on the fact that this has always been taught and believed by the Catholic Church. Very well, perhaps it is already a doctrine of the Catholic Church. In that case...

1. What exactly is the teaching on Mary as Co-Redemtrix?

2. What exactly is the teaching on Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace?

In asking these questions, I am seeking a few things. It is common for some Catholics to give a seemingly watered down summary of what the teachings mean so that they are agreeable to all. Perhaps it isn't watered down, and that's really all it is. I don't know. When I read things like

"Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us." (Saint Bernardine of Siena)

it gives me reason to doubt that it is as simple as they make it sound. How has this teaching been taught over the centuries in the Catholic Church? How has it "evolved"/"developed"?

The Administrator offered this:

The theology of �Co-Redemptrix� may be unnecessary but it is not heretical. The term �co� means �together with� not �equal to�. All Christians are called to work together with Christ to redeem the world. Mary is simply the first �co-redeemer�. Think about this in terms of St. John Chrysostom�s words that the saddest thing in the world is a Christian who has no concern for the salvation (redemption) of his fellow man.

�Mediatrix �of all graces�" means simply that the Theotokos can intercede for us in all things. This is perfectly orthodox and Orthodox. Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24) but his Mother can and does mediate for us before her Son and God through her prayers.


With regard to his thoughts on the teaching of the Co-Redemptrix, if he is right in his formulation, I do not see what the point is. If All Christians are called to work together with Christ to redeem the world. Mary is simply the first �co-redeemer�, then exactly what about Mary's "Co-Redemption" (pardon the expression) is so special? Merely that she was the first? I hardly suspect that anyone, Catholic or non-Catholic, would've thought too highly of declaring a dogma on these grounds. And yet, there was just such a movement, and even a good number of bishops of the RCC were in support of it. So I wonder if this formulation is complete.

With regard to his thoughts on the teaching on the Mediatrix of All Grace, it is true that Mary can and does mediate on our behalf. But so do the Saints. So does our Guardian Angel. So do all good Christians, in line with the quote he selected from Saint John Chrysostom. So what about Mary's mediation is of particular importance, that a dogma is felt necessary by some? I am not sure, but this too doesn't seem to be a complete statement on the meaning of this teaching.

The Admin notes that we should always look to what the Church actually teaches, and not necessarily to the writings of individual saints, and he is right. Hence, my original questions regarding what the Church actually teaches.

LatinTrad said to another poster

Can you explain why it is an affront to Christ, if He chooses to distribute graces by the hand of His Mother?

I suppose I could pose the question "How do we know that Christ distributes graces by the hand of His Mother?" But I think it would be better to ask

3. What is grace?

If I am not mistaken, the Orthodox view of Grace is that it is the Uncreated Energies of God, by Which we participate in the Divine Life. Grace is God Himself. But to speak of "distributing graces" sounds more like "distributing favours". Moreover, some Orthodox will criticise the Catholics for believing in "created grace". Perhaps they are right, perhaps not. How does the Catholic Church define grace?

Theist Gal writes

Mary's sole purpose - the reason "her soul magnified the Lord" - was, and is, to bring Christ Jesus to us. That is why we say that all graces come to us through her - because, when all is said and done, all graces come to us through Jesus Christ - who chose to come to us through this humble virgin.

And you find that offensive because ... ?


So Mediatrix of All Grace means that all graces come to us through Jesus Christ, Who chose to come to us through Mary. I don't have a problem with logic per se, but this kind of logical leap in order to call Mary the Mediatrix of All Grace seems unjustified. Why, for instance, could we not take the logical next step and say that Saint Anne is the Mediatrix of All Grace? After all, all graces come to us through Jesus Christ, Who chose to come to us through Mary, who was born of Saint Anne. Or, what is to stop someone from taking it to the ultimate logical next step, and saying that Jesus came through Mary, who came from Anne, who came from...all the way back to Eve? Why can't Eve be simultaneously the woman through whom sin entered the world, and also the Mediatrix of All Grace? Surely there is more to this title and its meaning than that graces come through Christ, Who came from Mary.

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Dear Amado,

Well, "Catholic" is a Greek word like "Orthodox."

So there . . . wink

Alex

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Quote
Originally posted by ByzantineAscetic:
What part of this undefined dogma i do accept is that the Holy Theotokos, would be Mediatrix of Grace. Notice I left out of "All Graces". I relize
that their are certain things in which Grace Comes directly from Christ, i.e. The Holy Mysteries.
Daniel
This sounds agreeable to me.

Michael

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Dear Mor Ephrem,

We never have enough of our "Phil!" wink

Well, I'll take a jab at some of these questions that are really above my simple head!

I would begin with the nature of the Incarnation itself.

Some theologians speak as if Christ's deified Humanity were somehow subsumed by His Divinity.

I know you, being Oriental Orthodox, would never do that smile . Just relax, Phil, sit back down, now . . .

But for the New Testament, the point of departure when we speak of the outpouring of Grace, the Uncreated Energies et alia, is the Deified Humanity of Christ.

We're not talking about Latin definitions of Grace for the time being, so that really doesn't enter into here.

Again, this is God's choosing, not ours.

As the Coptic and Ethiopian Liturgies celebrate, Christ took His Flesh, the Flesh which, united substantially to the Person of the Eternal Logos, is the Flesh of our salvation and Deification, from His Mother.

His Mother is the New Eve and she is, as you allude to, the connecting bridge between the Old and New Testaments, in whom the Law and the Prophets find fulfillment as in the New Ark of the Covenant that contained God the Word Incarnate.

This is why the Churches of the East especially praise and magnify her above all Saints and Angels.

There is no human being that comes close to her in Grace and spiritual beauty and dignity, not her mother St Anne, nor any of her ancestors, nor anyone else.

So, in the wide sense, yes, the Incarnate Word communicates Grace to us through His deified Humanity which He shares with us.

And St Eve and all the saints are a part of the process by which Grace is mediated to us through the Church and the Communion of Saints.

But the New Eve, the Most Holy Mother of God, has a place in the Cosmos as no other. That is the Faith of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of Christ of all time!

The point is that Grace is always mediated.

Otherwise you would not have Christian salvation and Theosis.

God chose to become Incarnate, to save our sinful and fallen humanity by assuming it and bringing it into His Divinity.

That Divine touch is what heals and transfigures.

And it continues through the Church and the Saints who are also deified in Christ by the Holy Spirit and who likewise mediate the same Grace of Christ and the Holy Trinity that has transfigured them - to us.

I don't like the Latin terms of "Mediatrix of all Graces" for a number of reasons.

But IF it means that the Uncreated Energies of God in Christ are communicated to us through his Deified Humanity in the Spirit and that the Communion of those already deified, or the Saints, are an integral part of that mediation (if they become "Christ-like" then part of being like Christ is to exercise His Mediatorial Priesthood), then it is entirely in keeping with Eastern Theology on the subject.

There is no need for us in the East to define such things.

We've known about them for a very long time.

I need to go aside and meditate for a while . . .

Alex

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Dear Daniel and Michael,

I like to think of that perspective on Grace as the Lord's "trickle down theory!" wink

Alex

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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
The point is that Grace is always mediated.

Otherwise you would not have Christian salvation and Theosis.

God chose to become Incarnate, to save our sinful and fallen humanity by assuming it and bringing it into His Divinity.

That Divine touch is what heals and transfigures.

And it continues through the Church and the Saints who are also deified in Christ by the Holy Spirit and who likewise mediate the same Grace of Christ and the Holy Trinity that has transfigured them - to us.
Alex, I have no problem with any of this or what came before it.

Quote
I don't like the Latin terms of "Mediatrix of all Graces" for a number of reasons.

But IF it means that the Uncreated Energies of God in Christ are communicated to us through his Deified Humanity in the Spirit and that the Communion of those already deified, or the Saints, are an integral part of that mediation (if they become "Christ-like" then part of being like Christ is to exercise His Mediatorial Priesthood), then it is entirely in keeping with Eastern Theology on the subject.
If that is indeed what it means, then I don't have a problem with it. The problem is that it does not seem clear at all to me that the Roman Catholics believe that teaching in this sense; or, if they do believe in it in this sense, they take it even further and believe in that even further sense. That's why I'd like to know what exactly it is that the Roman Catholics have taught/do teach regarding this, if it is indeed, as EWTN claims, the official teaching of the Church (even if formally undefined). I'd particularly enjoy hearing LatinTrad chime in on this one if he has the time.

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Thanks to all for a very enlightening thread!

Like many here, I've struggled for a long time with the notion of Mary as "co-redemptrix" and "mediatrix of all graces". (I guess it was my Protestant upbringing). But in the past few weeks, I've had the privledge to read St. Louis de Montfort's book, True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. I am now in the process of re-reading it, slowly, to drink it all in.

I would encourage those who have difficulty with these ideas to read this prayerfully read this book. It will help. While I support the Holy Father's reluctance to make a "dogmatic pronouncement", there is a depth of theology and spirituality to be explored here. It has certainly helped me to see how essential the Blessed Mother is to our salvation.

Peace,

Dave
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Dear: OrthodoxCath,

Christ Is In Our Midst!

Why dont you agree with the Latin Terminology,
"Mediatrix of All Graces". I dont like it either, because i know personally she is not Mediatior of "All Graces". Im like you eastern, why does every thing need to be defined. So now that ive got that solved. What about the Co-Redemptrix, is she?

Daniel

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Daniel,
And where did OLGS Jesus Christ take his human nature from? That which we receive in the Eucharist as His Holy Flesh and Blood, the source of grace.
Was this not also mediated through the incarnation, through the Most Holy Blessed all pure and immaculate Theotokos?

Stephanos I

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It was.

Daniel

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Stephanos, I have always meant to ask you something. Your profile says you are clergy. What jurisdiction are you with and your clerical rank? Clergy can be anything from subdeacon on up, so I was curious. Thanks. Don

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Originally posted by ByzantineAscetic:
It was.

Daniel
Daniel - another Question for you

If Our Blessed Lady had not said 'yes' where would we be?

Oh and another - the Wedding Feast [ the very First Miracle of Christ's Public Ministry ]- did not Our Lady ask Her Son to help ?? And did He refuse His Mother's request ?

Sorry I never could count wink

Anhelyna

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