www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy Female Readers/Lectors in the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church

A few weeks ago my Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic parish was fortunate to offer a seminar for aspiring cantors and readers/lectors lead by a seminarian with a background in music. At the end of the session a few people attempted to chant some of the example Epistles.

A young woman did by far the best job. This caused a coercive individual of the parish to stand-up and exclaim "if we have female lectors I am going to stop tithing!" as he stomped out of the building. Coercive behavior for that person is nothing new but it started a debate about female readers/lectors in the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic.

My feeling is that if the church allows it (which I believe it does -- am I mistaken?) then that's the end of it. People can certainly makes comments like "I prefer all male readers due to the pitch of their voices" or "I prefer all male readers because I appreciate upholding the tradition of this parish" or possibly even "I prefer all male readers because serving as a reader is a great way to foster a possible priestly vocation."

On the other hand I personally find it highly offensive for some to suggest the church is wrong to allow female readers because until a certain historical point only males (ordained males at that) read the Epistles/OT readings in the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church. To me they are suggesting they know more than the church does and I find that very distasteful.

Some suggest the church is now in error -- that it was forced to allow female readers and that in time things will be returned to their correct state. Some even try to sell the ludicrous notion that female readers are a step towards female priests ignoring the content of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.

I would really appreciate hearing some outside voices on this subject. I think the "traddie Latin" mindset has had a terribly deleterious impact on my Byzantine parish. Thank you all.

I don't think there is anything in conflict with Orthodox tradition to have female lectors, with one important caveat: that the female lector does not do anything to suggest that she might be a tonsured reader (i.e. clergy).

It goes without saying that she should not wear a sticharion or get a blessing to read within the altar; reading position shows more variation.

In the more conservative Orthodox parishes (I am talking Russian use here) if a woman reads the epistle she will read it from the kliros or similar place, not from the centre of the church. This is because traditionally only tonsured readers read from this position; this however is rapidly changing, due in part to tonsured readers becoming rare. Additionally, women now routinely read the six psalms or Old Testament readings at all night vigil from the centre of the church so I expect this to become a non-issue even for the epistle reading.

I can't find it online, but somewhere there is a letter by St Tikhon on minor orders in the Orthodox Church, and he specifically says that he has no problem with women readers; I think this should be a non-issue, provided that reading is not confused with being a tonsured reader.

Abraham-

First of all, you are not mistaken, your cathedral parish has a few females who are readers. (I know, I serve there.) Continue to encourage yourself and others to become readers and cantors. There is no prohibition of female readers/cantors in the particular law of the Metropolia of Pittsburgh nor in the Pastoral Handbook promulgated by His Grace, Bishop Gerald. There is a prohibition against females serving in the altar at the Holy Table.

Thanks for the reply and for confirming that females may indeed be readers (is "reader" the preferred name for that function?) in the Byzantine Ruthenian Church. From my standpoint I simply want to hear the most gifted individuals chanting the readings -- be they male or female. After all their ability is God-given.

Candidly I am also disgusted at those who claim to be "super Catholic" until something the Church actually allows/encourages runs contrary to their personal preferences based on some sort of "1955 USA Latin Rite all is great" idealism

Thanks again.

Thank you for taking this so "deep." This is becoming more and more fascinating to me. There really is a great deal to it including the eventual (God willing!) reunification of the Church.

I wish some of the people in my parish would read this thread and ponder/pray on some of the information that is being presented. Thank you.

I (a female, by the way) would love to have attended the workshop. We were down there a couple of weeks ago and had a brief visit with Father James, who told us that you all were having the workshop. I wanted to stay for it. (-:

I think you hit it on the head. These people are really afraid of having women priests, which simply is not going to happen. It is the same attitude in the Latin church with female Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. "I won't accept Communion from a woman." If you object to a non-ordained person distributing communion, your objection should hold equally true, whether the person be male or female. It is reasonable to say that one is only comfortable receiving from a priest. If we are going to have non-ordained people filling roles that were previously reserved to the ordained, why does it matter if that person is a male or female? On the other hand, I wouldn't really want to see women serving at the altar, so I apparently have my limits as well. Maybe this person's line was just at a different place than mine.

Elizabeth

I just think that ultimately they're "cafeteria catholics" -- they ultimately pick and choose what they will accept no matter what the Church allows/disallows. Their gold standard appears to be their idealized, personal perception of what the Latin Rite was like in the USA in the 1950's.

Someone at my parish once told me "I would NEVER receive Holy Communion from a woman!" I said "Why? In some cases under specific conditions the Church allows just that." After some hemming and hawing he replied "because their hands are not consecrated!" To wit I replied "You had better not receive communion here today. As a Byzantine Catholic priest Father's hands aren't consecrated either." The guy looked as if his brain had just exploded...

Haha I will have to remember that one.

I belong to a parish which was once Byzantine Catholic and has since become an MP Eastern Orthodox parish. I chant the Old Testament and Menaion prayers during Vespers services, because most of the time, it is only between two and four people who come to the Vespers. Sometimes it is just the elderly choir director and me plus Father at the Vespers. So, whoever is not pleased with a woman chanting at services, should come to church himself and do the job for me - I will gladly yield. I also want to mention that I do not like the sound of a high-pitched female voice chanting; I always keep mine in my lower range.

Mariya,

Welcome to the forum! I hope you'll enjoy it here.

Many years,

Neil

Mariya,

was this originally a Ruthenian parish or another eastern Catholic church? I'm curious how you became MP instead of ROCOR as well; if you like, PM me as its off topic.

When I was at a Ruthenian parish, someone complained about the use of women as readers. The priest ended that argument by asking, "Are you volunteering to read, then?"

The parish was Ruthenian and became Russian Orthodox, it was 1902-1912 and ROCOR did not exist yet. There was a trend at the time of Uniate Ruthenian parishes becoming Russian Orthodox because they were not happy with certain things in their own church. However, they did preserve their own special ways of doing certain things, though. I am Russian but I learned the Ruthenian dialect a little because I sing Christmas carols at this parish with them every year. :-)

MariyaNJ:

Welcome to the forum!!

Bob
Moderator

Ah OK, it went back that far. I'm glad some unique traditions were preserved

Mariya,

While we've many members here whose ACROD, OCA, and ROCOR parishes were once Ruthenian, your parish is somewhat of a rarity. The vast majority of Ruthenian parishes that entered into the Archdiocese of North America and the Aleutians in the time period that you indicate eventually became part of the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America ("the Metropolia") and, in time, either the OCA or ROCOR.

Formerly Ruthenian parishes that transferred directly (versus a portion of the faithful breaking away and erecting a new temple) to the North American Archdiocese and remain today among the parishes of the Patriarchal Representation/Vicariate are few and far between. Our resident historian, John Schweich, may correct me, but Ss Peter & Paul Cathedral in Passaic (NJ) and Ss Peter & Paul in Manchester (NH) are the only two that come immediately to mind. (I'm not sure about the history of St Nicholas in Chester (PA); it may also fall into that category.)

Many years,

Neil

Hello,
yes, Ss Peter & Paul Cathedral in Passaic, New Jersey, is my church. We are hosting the Sunday of Orthodoxy joint service at 4:00pm, there will be a ton of people from different churches in the area, come join us!

It's on March 4 btw.

I took a class on chanting the Epistle. I feel comfortable doing it after taking this class, however I know I would be super nervous when the time came for me to actually chant it in front of our parish simply because I'm new at it and it's in front of people. Women don't do anything at our parish; men do it all. Well, when it comes to chruch service stuff. Part of me really wants to chant the Epistle just once, just so I know I can do it! It's actually not the pastor who I am afraid to ask. If he said no, not a big deal. If he did say yes, it's the older parishioners I'd be afraid of! I'm sure I'd feel as if they were stoning me with their glares. This makes me even more nervous. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that is how things would go.

Obviously, being a female and having taken the time to take a formal class in this, I have no problem with women in general doing things in the Church. As long as it is approved and no one oversteps boundaries. I do understand the concept of not being an ordained to ANY order as a woman or being able to be a server as is ok in RC parishes.

Some questions from a new member.

There has been some discussion about female readers being alright, but that they shouldn't act like tonsured readers. Tonsured readers are only male, I presume? Doesn't that imply that tonsured readers are always to be preferred, and that if not available, then you can make use of a lay reader?

By analogy, I often serve Mass (Traditional, Latin rite). I would never presume to do this if there enough priests and deacons and seminarians to take the roles. In fact they are called acolytes because the roles are for those ordained to the minor order of acolyte (not sure if this exists in the East, or is called the same thing).

Also regarding "Eucharistic ministers" -- well this is a total aberration in the Latin rite. I would never receive from a woman, but I'd also never receive from a lay man! In the Byzantine Rite I'm happy to receive from the priest because he is a priest. Even if his hands are not consecrated according to the Latin ceremoniale, he is the priest, the alter Christus, offering the Sacrifice from God to God, and He alone should be giving Communion. The Latin rite is actually more liberal -- it allows deacons, in cases of need, to help distribute communion (e.g. to the sick, or a really crowded Mass where many people are receiving).

But in the Latin rite today (in the Novus Ordo) we often see laypeople giving Communion. They even do this when there is no need, and sometimes the priest is even seated (I have seen it myself). They even give blessings sometimes (which I believe even deacons in the East do not do).

Anyway, that's my Latin perspective. I try to be respectful of Eastern traditions, that's why I'm here, because I'm fascinated and interested in the Byzantine Rite. I personally would not have a problem if the Eastern churches kept female readers in cases of need, but it makes sense to me that they'd like to encourage suitable men to be tonsured so they wouldn't have to have laypeople at all, men or women.

Sorry for my long post above. I wanted to add that the notion of women being capable is a distraction. Of course women can chant, and many can chant well. They can also serve at the altar, and they can do any action externally a priest or even a bishop can do. That's not the issue - only a myisogynist would question a woman's ability.

But the Church has restricted the priesthood to men, therefore there is something to the possibility that it might at least be preferable to restrict service at the altar and reading to men as well. I'm trying to be careful in my wording.

If I heard a female lector at Byzantine parish I visited, I would not interfere, lol, but I think this is a worthy discussion.

"I'm trying to be careful in my wording."

But you still don't sound right. "You don't really belong here ladies, but sure we'll use you if no men want to do the job." If that's the case, either find the men to chant, or if the men are too lazy then cancel the service. We're either fit to read or we're not, it doesn't work both ways.

If it's so simple, why does the Byzantine Church in her wisdom ordain men to be readers? Why would this not be a preferred thing?

Another perspective: I serve Mass in the Latin Rite. If I were told, "today we have enough priests, deacons, and seminarians in minor orders, we don't need you to serve," I would be overjoyed. I serve because we don't have enough ordained men to do this in the Latin Rite.

Women readers/lectors a distraction??? No way!
The huge distraction in the Latin Rite are the female and male Eucharistic ministers.

One does not have to be a Lector or Reader to chant the Epistle. Of course, if a parish is lucky enough to have a Lector or Reader present, the Epistle is chanted by the Lector or the Reader. In most cases, the Epistle is chanted by the parish Cantor or someone serving in this capacity in the absence of a trained Cantor.

This role of Cantor can be performed by either a man or a woman depending on need and circumstance. I have been told by many clergy and a few bishops (including some of the more conservative ones) that this is perfectly acceptable; however, they have also instructed that if a capable male is available for the task, it should be given first to the male. I know this sometimes causes hard feelings, but it is consistent with our tradition and unlikely to be modified.

The responses of some laity as shared throughout the thread, however, are both a blessing and a curse IMO. On the one hand, they exhibit a tendency toward traditionalism which is a hallmark of our Eastern Churches, and is OK as long as the views are expressed charitably. At the same time, this attitude ignores certain realities. There are many parishes which have no capable or willing males to perform the duty of Cantor. What then? Recite the Divine Liturgy? I am also aware of a few instances, even in Eastern Europe, where the wives of married priests (our dear Panis) serve as parish Cantor. If not, they are often the lead harmonists of the congregation and add constant beauty and depth in the rendering of our plainchant.

IMO our plainchant is so much better when harmomized, and in my mind not complete without an accompanying female alto voice. Our women faithful are no less essential to our chant tradition than anyone else. If circumstances require or permit, we should be grateful that we have women who are capable and willing to serve as Cantors so that our Divine Liturgy can be properly rendered.

My first sustained exposure to the Eastern Church was at an Orthodox (OCA) parish in Montreal where the director of the choir was a woman and, subsequently, where the chants were often led by her.

It never dawned on me that anyone could have a problem with it. After all, there was a clear distinction between her (quite beautiful) work in the community, and that of the clerics.

As a Latin Catholic, I agree 100%. End the practice of "Eucharistic Ministers."

Curious Joe said
This makes eminent sense to me. I think we have lost this in the Latin tradition but even there I'd love to see choirs made up of clerics in the choir stalls when possible (in monasteries, seminaries, cathedrals).

It might seem harsh to say a male should be preferred, and always things should be expressed with charity, but at the end of the day it's not about how we feel or what we would like. God gave us orders and reserved them to men.

The great majority of parishes do not have tonsured readers. But yes, if they have one he should be preferred for the chanting of the Epistle. However, just because one is a tonsured reader does not mean he is the most qualified to lead the rest of the liturgical chants as cantor. This should go to the most qualified person, man or woman. And I would also note that some Eastern Churches do tonsure women readers, most notably the The Chaldean Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church.


Yes the Eastern Catholic Churches have the minor orders of reader/cantor/server (all given in one rite, although theoretically server could be seperated) and subdeacon.


The Eastern Catholic Churches, as well the Orthodox Church, allow deacons to distribute when needed as well.



Rome has been quite clear lay extraordinary ministers are not to give blessings. Some Eastern Catholic Churches have made allowance in heir particular law for extraordinary ministers of Communion but they are far more restrictive about their use.

The Copts, for this matter, do not make women do anything whatsoever. The women do not even have to make their voices heard in church. They stay on the right side and pray quietly, looking pretty in their white lace veils. The men do all the reading, singing, serving, and everything. Now, that is fair! The men are the boss, but they are also paying the cost, instead of "reluctantly" making women do their duties for them. In the Coptic parish where I was, nearly all boys and men were involved in the service.

This concept of tonsured readers being "preferred" is not the ideal of the modern Russian Church; it happens, but it is a misinterpretation of the office. A Reader is not ordained to read the apostol (this would be like saying a deacon is ordained to recite litanies); he is ordained to minor orders (and actually the ordination/ tonsure subsumes a variety of orders, such as acolyte, chanter, etc) because he is being set up apart in the "first order of priesthood", that the candidate may "render themselves worthy of greater ministry" (prayers from the ordination of a reader).

In regard to the tonsured reader not being the preferred reader, and the role of untonsured readers and women reading in church see:

http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/liturgical_rubrics_1.htm#_Toc70898604

Otsheylnik: that's interesting, I'll take a closer look and think about it.

So it seems some Eastern Catholics / Orthodox feel lay readers including females are perfectly fine and should be used even when males are available (even tonsured males). Others don't think so - that females should be used if needed. Is there any appeal to authority? Or does everyone accept that a bishop or pastor can decide this for his individual territory / parish?

Hi Newyorkcatholic:

I accept my pastor's decisions, and whatever he directs, prohibits, or allows. I remember asking him if it was okay for a church singer to drink some water in the morning even if you're planning to partake of the Eucharist, because it's very hard to sing for two hours straight without a drop of water in your mouth. I have asked him a ton of questions, and he is always quick to respond, and not necessarily in a categorical manner. In his turn, Father has much respect for the long standing traditions of our (unique) parish. For example, every year at the Nativity Vespers service, the entire choir consisting of our ordained deacon, tonsured reader, and other men and women, take turns chanting the readings, one by one.

I have a great respect for and faith in my Pastor. If I have any questions about anything, what I do is email him. If he says he wants me to chant, I'm chanting; if not, I'm stepping to the side. That is why he is the pastor and I am in his flock; I guess it is a blessing to have a pastor about whom you feel this way.

That does sound great! How it should be!

newyorkcatholic,

As Pavloosh is not a Latin Catholic I can excuse his inaccurate terminology up thread , but you should be well aware of the need for accuracy.

You said
You mean you do not want Priests / Deacons administering the Holy Gifts ?

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

I think we need to get some terminology sorted out.

A "Eucharistic Minister" comes in two forms: ordinary and extraordinary. The ordinary ministers of the Holy Eucharist in the Latin Church are bishops, priests, and deacons. Lay people--men and women--are properly termed "Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion." The term "Eucharistic Minister" has been used in the past, but we've been instructed that this is not correct and should not be used to describe what functions lay people are asked to perform.

The whole area of proper terms came to those of us who have been asked to assist in this ministry about ten years ago. Such things as referring to the Holy Gifts as "bread" and "wine" after these latter have been changed into the Body and Blood of the Lord and "doing the dishes" when referring to cleaning the sacred vessels after Liturgy--we've been instructed to watch our language so as to avoid confusion about who we are and what it is we are doing. Of course, you'll always have people who "didn't get the memo."

There has been much criticism about having lay people distribute the Holy Gifts. The reason behind this practice was to facilitate the distribution during Liturgy when there is a large group. I've been to Latin parishes in the years before this practice became normal and had an extra half hour added to the time when a single priest tried to commune in excess of 700 to 1200 people. It happened. I've recenlty been to parishes so large that even with half a dozen priests and deacons together with another half dozen lay people the distribution of the Holy Gifts took a great deal of time. I don't know how people are to be served in these situations.

Prior to Vatican II, the distribution of Holy Communion often took very little time because of the fasting requirements then in place and the requirement of confession either the day before or within the previous two weeks. People didn't commune as often and the large crowds simply came by, watched, and went home.

Bob

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I understand your apprehension; its hard to chant in public for the first time, whether male or female. I sugest that you talk to your pastor and/or cantor about chanting on a minor feastday or a daily DL/Presanctified DL/small funeral, etc. Its much easier and if you make a mistake not as many people are there to hear it. As your confidence and ability build it will become easier and the skeptics will slowly accept it.

Thank you for volunteering to learn this valuable vocation.

Fr Deacon Paul

AnnaPink'd:

May I suggest another thing you might try in addition to the excellent advice of Father Deacon Paul. I have trained lay readers in the Latin Church for decades. I tell those I train to go to the parish church at some time during the week and read from the place they will read--to an empty house. Then walk around the place and become comfortable with the whole space to overcome their stage fright. Later, when standing in front of the crowd, mentally go back to the time of practicing alone.

You might go to your parish and chant in the midst of the church alone to get comfortable in the space. Fix your gaze on the icon of Christ and gaze at Him when you chant. Form this as your habit and it may help your uneasiness.

Bob

Oh come on! Picky, picky, picky!
Priests and bishops should be the only ones distributing the Holy Eucharist. Being handed Communion by a hand with finger nails painted fire engine red is a real distraction.
So what if the Mass is several minutes longer due to the faithful receiving Communion - many rush out of church before the final blessing anyway.
As one priest said: "The most dangerous place to be on a Sunday morning is in a Roman Catholic Church parking lot immediately after Mass".

Of course, I only want priests (and deacons only when necessary) to distribute Holy Communion.

That's why I put "Eucharistic Ministers" in quotes ... because the lay people called that are not really such by nature, they are just deputized to function in such a role in the current law of the Latin Church.

It's a disturbing practice (at least IMO) and it is abused far more often than used properly anyway.

Of course I never see them anymore, since I am always at the TLM or DL.

My uncles, aunts and cousins all were parishioners at a very large RC church in our area growing up. The senior pastor was a hard liner by any definition. Yet he would complete a Mass reverently in 22 - 23 minutes flat, with the help of his assistant pastors come time to distribute Holy Communion.

In return, he expected (nay, demanded) that everyone stay for the final blessing. He would call you out by name (yes, he somehow knew everyone by name) if you dared leave Mass before the final blessing.

At my youngest cousin's wedding Mass, as pictures were being taken, I commented to him on how mellow the pastor had seemingly become with age. My cousin laughed and said "no, he's still the same - wait until you walk outside".

Sure enough, in the vestibule over the exit doors was a huge banner which read:

"Judas was the first to leave Mass early!"

To me, the blessing at the end of a mass is special. I want the blessing, I always need it. Those words Father says: "Idźcie W Pokoju Chrystusa" - and in peace i want to be, forever. I bow my head and listen to the blessing attentively, and hope sincerely that I will be blessed.

I suggest that we stick with the topic of the thread, folks - which is female readers and lectors in the Byzantine Ruthenian Church. Though I have no objection to it broadening into the other Eastern Churches, Catholic or Orthodox, discussion of the Latin Church's use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion is not a germane topic for this particular forum (and is really of little or no concern to Eastern Christians).

Many years,

Neil

Sorry about the off-top, I guess I got caught up in reminiscing. I went on a pilgrimage to Czestochowa, Poland, in 2009, so I went into quite a few churches there and ever since I get emotional about the Polish-language mass.

Mariya,

Not a problem - your post was not the one(s) to which my comments were addressed.

Many years,

Neil

The Greek Orthodox Church is ordaining women as Deaconesses again ... reviving an ancient tradition.

What I have read is that they are used differently than Male Deacons.

I'm not sure what the difference is.

We are a Patristic Church - I can see the difficulties that some women have as members but I also believe there are differences in the sexes.

I won't go into details about the Theology of GOD THE FATHER - as a connectedness of God to humanity - as a reaching out of God to us ... but man THAT is PATRISTIC!

To protect myself from females attacking me - I just want to tell you about what I have experienced when a Father rejects a son or a daughter - it has life long consequences. A Father's role is different than a mother and it affects the children differently. So the Love of God The Father - as HE intended Fatherhood is a beautiful expression of Love.

I'm not sure that makes sense but that's the way I have seen it in our ever more secularized world - the truth is that men and women ARE different and that maybe God wanted the roles He established.

We have female cantors but our Deacon Candidate has taken over the function of reader for now and no women are doing it.

I've seen them do it in every Byzantine Church I've attended so far though ...

Mariya, I am a bit confused, are you for women who chant of the apostol (Epistle) depending upon the church/jurisdiction or do not think this is a proper duty for women to chant?

Hi Joy,

Regarding the Epistle - I've never seen a woman read the Epistle at any Orthodox Church, and I don't know about Byzantine ones. So I have no opinion on that... Certainly this decision is up to Church authorities - and their decision is binding on the faithful.

Got ya, in the Byzantine Churches women are permitted to chant the apostol, I am one of them and it is a great honor to do so, as for the Orthodox church and the rules they have, I cannot comment on that either as I do not attend an Orthodox church but have, in the past, read the hours prior to Liturgy during my attachment to a choir that travelled from one church to another, and, at SS Peter and Paul under Father Eugene, I read the hours all the time there and it did not seem to break any "rules" but, that was then I suppose.

While growing up in the 60's and 70's one never heard a woman read the epistle - I suspect that was true in Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic practice. (re: JEK - while I understand you meant Byzantine Catholic when you used the term - 'Byzantine Churches' to a non BCC reader that might imply Greek or Arabic Orthodox practice as well, so it is a good practice for clarity sake to add Catholic or Orthodox when using the term 'Byzantine'.)

It no longer strikes me as unusual for a woman to lead chant or to read the epistle. I have observed this in a number of different Orthodox jurisdictions, including ACROD. While it still may not be the norm, it certainly is not 'prohibito per se.' Perhaps in some of the more traditionalist Orthodox jurisdictions this is not the case. For many, many years there have been women choral directors in both the Orthodox and Greek Catholic churches here in the States. What is the difference then between a cantor and a choir director?

I'm guessing it's still okay, because I've heard Matushka Valerie read these prayers (are they also called the hours?) that are being recited while the congregation leaves the church after liturgy.

Understood DMD, mea culpa, I assumed the word "Byzantine" would be understood within the context of the thread, I have read the hours, directed (Cantor and Choir Director) in many Orthodox (ACROD, ROCOR and MP) and Byzantine Catholic Churches in America and, Greek Catholic churches in Slovakia and have read the apostol as required, I assume it all depends upon the church itself and its traditions and, what the requirements happen to be. Thanks for your comments!

Hi Mariya, Not sure what goes these days on Sundays, last I visited (a long time ago) a choir member read hours, the other I believe wore a cassock but was not tonsured that I was aware of and read prayers at the end of Liturgy, which, I do not ever recall being performed years ago. All in all, its all interesting to remember these memories of times gone by. Thanks for your input!

The choir member reading the hours must be Donald Freeman, who is soon to be married to Jennifer, she was Catholic but recently entered the Orthodox Faith. She sits up at the choir loft with us and with her son. They are a beautiful couple, a beautiful family.

The choir member wearing a cassock - I know who he is, the name escapes me - I think he has a reason for wearing it, not sure of details, but I can ask him one day. I will choose a moment when such a question should not make him feel uncomfortable, but rather express an innocent interest in his special garment.

I fell in love with this church and made it mine, became a parishioner 3 years ago, just paid dues for the 4th time, for myself as well as for Mom and Brother. I trust and respect Father Stephen, and I am comfortable with the congregation, and its diversity. It's fewer of us than before, people are older, not as able, but the same spirit of Unity in Christ. I am proud of having the honor to serve as a chanter to these outstanding people

I am very glad you are happy with your church, we all need to find a church we are comfortable with and that addresses our spiritual needs. Since I have not visited there in a long time I really have no idea how things are these days but, am sure the church will continue no matter what direction it goes in during the future. The idea behind paying "dues" I could never figure out but, I suppose it is a practice for some churches, I have seen it done in some places but not in others, just depends upon the local custom I assume. I recall a lovely girl that used to sing in the choir that married a man who was Jewish, I hope she is still in the choir as she had a very lovely voice. Thanks for your thoughts.

At Holy Trinity Gk. Orthodox Church in Dallas, it's normal for young ladies (I presume GOYA members or students in the parochial Greek School) to read - not chant - the Epistle. One of them does it in Greek & the other in English. After the reading, which takes place facing the congregation, they both go and kiss the hand cross extended to them by the celebrant.

At St. Basil's in Irving, both men and women chant the Epistle. Very often I can hear & understand the women better since it seems to me their voices/diction are clearer.

How lovely sielos ilgesys, what a beautiful tradition to kiss the hand cross after the reading!

In our tradition (Greek Catholic/Byzantine) the reader stands in the middle aisle facing the altar and chants (sometimes they read too but not generally on a Sunday) then receives the blessing "peace be upon you reader", etc.

The Cantor who has guided me always said the first important rule is to chant/read clearly, slowly and enuciate every work so people can understand what the message is.

Thank you again for your thoughts!

I normally read the Epistle in English every week after the chanter does it in Ukrainian . He chants from the front of the Church and I read from my place - about half way down.

Sub-deacon John chants the Gospel in English from the front - before he arrived I read it [ with the Bishop's blessing ] from the front of the Church facing the congregation. Sub-deacon John always venerates the Gospel Book afterwards - and so did I

What a lovey tradition Our Lady's slave! It is fantastic to see so many women who are blessed to undertake this great honor!

At St. Vladimir Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Scranton PA, various individuals read the Epistle including women, men and children.

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I can appreciate Mariya's comments, I was called upon three or so times by Mariya's church to read the Acts of the Apostles on Holy Saturday evening (after performing Saturday Matins/Reserrection services at my own church) as that is a tradition in that church and because there was absolutely no one who volinteered, wanted to or would offer to do so and the priest was in a jam to find someone to perform this duty. I chanted non-stop for about three hours by the Plaschanitsia (thank God for a very kind and gracious member of the parish, this lady kept me supplied with water, coffee and juice as she was at the church office taking care of matters), I was the only preson in church by the way. If it is fine for women to perform services when no others wish to, I dont understand why people in some churches have issues with women chanting (which has much more beauty and grace IMHO than reading), the apostol, etc.

I agree with the we dont want you really but, we will use you if we have no one else to fill the gap (even when there are others who should be doing the job if a church has a director, choir members, etc).

I agree with Mariya's comment, if there is no one to perform the service for whatever reason and if no one is going to show up for it, cancel it.

Слава Ісусу Христу! - Слава на віки!

Hello
I have not read all of the past entries but I was wondering, what happens in the women's monastery? Do the nuns act as readers and lectors and would they chant these?

Unworthy
Kolya

Yes Kolya, Slava Isusu Christu, Slava Na Viki!

Good deduction Kolya, very good, I am sure in my humble opinion they do, otherwise, I suppose the services would be pretty limited if there is no one to read as the community is all female based.

God bless you and have a blessed Sunday!

JEK

Those interested in reading a well thought out (and patristically supported) opposition to women readers should check out the posts of Father Deacon Brian Patrick Mitchell at Monachos forum. Click the link below to read his insightful comments on the issue:

Woman and the holy Liturgy [monachos.net]

Apotheoun, my brother,

Albeit far from personally espousing a feminist outlook, after having read several pages of the Deacon's thoughts on the topic of the roles of women in the Church (and society in general), I am unimpressed. Frankly, I find him wanting in the extreme in his obvious disdain for the female gender. He was clearly born several centuries too late; I'm certain that he would attribute that to being the fault of a woman.

Many years,

Neil

Apotheoun,

Thank you for posting an article you feel is important.

I read the Deacon's comments but honestly, for myself, I do not agree with him. I chant in church, I sing at funerals as a Cantor, I read the apostol in church, I have read the hours in many Orthodox churches (one being many years ago ROCOR) prior to Liturgy, directed Vespers services and sang in many a choir.

Also, I always like to recall it was women who Christ first manifested himself too after his glorious reserrection.

I will never understand this issue of women being treated in such a manner, we are all Children of God and members his church, not just some, all of us.

Thank you for your comments!

I do not - after having read his book and several internet discussions he has been involved in - find him to be opposed to the female sex; instead, he simply does not buy into the modern feminist attitude that tries to promote ideas contrary to tradition in liturgical worship. On the whole I find his analysis convincing, while I tend see those who support women's activities during the liturgy as espousing a non-Christian world view.

Perhaps you can provide patristical quotations that promote the idea that women should read the lessons during the liturgy, but I must admit that I have never - at least to this point - found anything in the Fathers that supports that notion.

Hmmm

Well I'll admit I started reading the Father Deacon's views and thought what a wonderful world he lives in.

What does he suggest happens in Churches where no-one volunteers to read / chant or otherwise serve ?

If someone is absent - no one else helps out.

This will end with the Priest [ if you don't have a Deacon - and many of us do not ] having to do the whole Liturgy himself .

Frankly I think it's time this thread was brought to a close

instead, he simply does not buy into the modern feminist attitude that tries to promote ideas contrary to tradition in liturgical worship.

Well, I am a woman, I suppose I am modern as I live in our times but I have no blessed idea what "modern feminist attitudes" are and, more important, I am not espousing any form of non-Christian world view. How can it be contrary to "tradition" if a woman reads, sings, chants, etc., in church? I am not trying to be critical here, just trying to understand the reasoning.

Also, it was not only the apostles who walked and followed Christ...

..And it came to pass afterward, that He went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God, the twelve were with Him. And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, and Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto Him of their substance. (Luke 8:1-4)

I am sure they also told others what they heard and saw, and taught them what the Messiah had taught while they listened to him, just as they did later as the apostles went on to preach the Gospel throughout the world.

That seems to be the common answer at Byzcath when people do not like what they are reading.

I cannot speak for Father Deacon Patrick, but as I see it we should stop promoting the false notion that women can substitute for men during the liturgy and start pushing for men to act like real men.

Agreed Our Lady's slave, the threat should be ended as it will go on ad infinitum due to the various issues that were the opinions and written by the Deacon.

Perhaps you should read Father Deacon Patrick's book on this topic, because he provides a huge assortment of quotations from the Church Fathers that speak out against women reading during the divine liturgy. It was after reading through his book, and his many discussions on the internet, that I became convinced that the issue of women readers in a parish congregation was, and is, simply contrary to Tradition.

Apotheoun, yes, that is your opinion, as they say, ten people can read the bible and come out with ten different interpretations.

In the meantime, I will keep chanting.

Also, what fathers are you speaking of and are they any church fathers, priests, monks, etc., from the recent past (ie. 18th, 19th 20th, etc. centuries?)

Thank you for your thoughts and comments.

Apotheoun,

That is a very ungenerous statement to make, I have seen an entire spectrum of opinions on Byzcath and all are respected, sometimes things get a tad heated but, all opinions are respected, they do not ask any thread be closed because they do not like what they are reading.

And as I said up thread - if these 'real men' don't volunteer then what ? And that BTW is a serious question.

Apotheoun - I've been posting here for some years and I don't think I have ever asked publicly for a thread to be closed down .

Anhelyna's point is very moot in Old Rite Orthodox experience.

Old Rite communities had to learn to adapt, not only because of the revolution and exile, but because so many men were drawn away from the parishes by the two world wars and the gulag. Without women on the krylosy there would have been no chanting and parish liturgical life would have ground to a halt.

In some places there were great arguments when life returned to a greater semblance of normality, but as far as choirs were concerned women were there to stay. In some bezpopovtsy communities patronized by the great Old Believer industrialists women had been part of factory choirs for several decades before the revolution. The factories in question had their own chapels and processions could be held in the grounds prior to 1905.

Also, women were often the strictest and devoutest members of communities, particularly in priestless ones which demanded especially strict observation of canons. As knizhnitsy, women preserved book learning and knowledge and within communal worship the babushky often were the ones with the musical knowledge to assist the nastavnik. The semi-monastic nature of many priestless communities afforded women a high place in parish life. Without women in worship Old Rite Orthodoxy would have collapsed.

I know the post is about the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church, but I think this tangent is pertinent to the direction the thread has taken.

Times change!!! Economia!!!

We must simply redouble our efforts and push and cajole men to take on their proper archic and hierarchic roles during the liturgy - like we do with the vocations crisis in connection with the priesthood. But what we must not do is alter Apostolic Tradition to fit a non-Christian worldview that sees sexual differentiation as irrelevant.

Economia is not about overturning Tradition. Your attitude would simply replace Tradition with something new. If economia becomes the norm it is no longer simply economy.

Another series of comments by Deacon Patrick that are helpful can be found at the link below:

More Misbehavior Threatening the Unity of the Orthodox Churches in America? [monomakhos.com]

Those interested in more information about the archic and hierarchic roles of God and man should read the article, "The Problem with Hierarchy: Ordered Relations in God and Man," in the fall 2010 issue of St. Vladimir's Theological Quarterly (SVTQ 54 2, 2010).

Apotheoun:

Would you kindly give us some background on Deacon Patrick? What jurisdiction is he attached to, is he is an author, a professor at SVS?

Thanks.

From Wikipedia, he appears to be OCA and a professional journalist, at least in the past:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Patrick_Mitchell

Thanks J Benedict, it sheads insite into his opinions of social structure.

No Apotheoun - that is not my attitude at all!!! You make the whole issue sound like a fight. I think you have simply interpreted the post in a way to suit your combative attitude. Nowhere have I advocated replacing Tradition with economia, so, please, get off your soap-box.

I am observing that without economia at certain times and in certain places there would be no Tradition. Tradition is that which we have received, and without a means of transmission there can be no Tradition. It would die.

If we look at Catacomb Christianity in the USSR we see that communities had to be spiritually creative in order to sustain Christian life. Babushky baptised their grandchildren. Was this economia wrong? Monks took the oil of unction to the dying and annointed them in the absence of a clergyman. Wrong? Priests blessed wedding rings for spiritual children exiled hundreds of miles away. Nuns carried the Holy Gifts to imprisoned clergy - in one case even hidden inside an apple. This was not about trampling Tradition. It was an measure of economia in the face of necessity. Throwing canons at clergy in the gulag, or at those taking them the Holy Mysteries would be meaningless.

We do need to remedy some situations and practices which arise in the life of the Church, but also need to accept necessity when it arises and has arisen in the past. This does not mean that anyone who proposes economia is the enemy of Tradition or is a raging Renovationist who wants to move the goal posts.

I have merely observed what has happened in one section of Byzantine Rite Christianity and concurred that it was done to preserve liturgical and spiritual life. What we do to redress practices that develop in the face of necessity is another matter.

However, this is becoming a tangent from the original thread.