www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Fear of Death

Of course, I wouldn't mind sharing with anyone interested what I find. The study I'm currently doing is not acutally on this question, though. I'm mentioning the "fear of death which compells us to sin" in the document as an aside. That's why I didn't want to spend a lot of time researching this right now.

p.s. Btw, Webster's defines equivocal as the following:
1. that can have more than one interprtation; having two or more meanings; purposely vague, misleading, or ambiguous
2. uncertain; undecided; doubtful
3. suspicious; questionable

How did you mean to use equivocal?

Not at all, Fr. Gregory. It is I who isn't the bright bulb, hence my question to understand.

Actually the "fear of death" can be understood very positively. Once we recognize that it si the "fear of death" which compells us to sin and that this is a part of our fallen condition AND that Christ has delivered us from the power of death...

...then we can cry out very positively with St. Paul: Where, O Death, is thy victory... where, O Death, is thy sting?" Because we know that "Christ is Risen from the Dead, trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs: bestowing life," we can also exclaim: "we have the victory through Jesus Christ our Lord" over Death!

Now if that's not positive, I don't know what is.

that can have more than one interpretation; having two or more meaning

... in the sense that I was writing above. Some writers clearly discuss the legacy of ancestral sin as including death and the incliniation to sin. Others very specifically insist that death is the legacy, and that because of death/fear of death we sin. These are the two "voices" that I had in mind.

I googled the matter and will just give some links that you might find interesting:
http://www.saintignatiuschurch.org/mm0502.html
http://orlapubs.com/AR/R52.html

http://orlapubs.com/AR/R134.html
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.11.en.the_ecclesiology_of_st._ignatius_of_antioch.01.htm

http://www.parembasis.gr/0000/00_88_05.htm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id4/ort_creation.htm
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0011.html
The last one is one very interesting comparison of Christian and Buddhist perspectives.
There were also as many hits related to positive aspects of the fear of death, and the last things, which can help us avoid sin.

ISTM that link of selfishness leading to sin is easy to make, and but fear death leading to selfishness is harder. Individualism, quite apart from fear of death, IMO, immediately leads to need. I think people fear - or at least want to avoid - the painful consequeces of need, want, deprivation; this fear can obviously lead to sin. We also fear insignificance. It was not a fear of death that precipitated the monstrous evil at Columbine.

When you think about death, do not be afraid, in spite of your sins. For he already knows that you love him and what stuff you are made of.

If you seek him, he will welcome you as the father welcomed the prodigal son; but you have to seek him.

(St. Josemaria)


In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory

One of the things Benedictine novices learn right away is to contemplate the idea of death and their own immortality (not morbiding dwelling on it though) for a few minutes each day as part of their private prayer time with the Lord. That way the realization that 'what they are all about is part of a journey towards death' is never out of mind for too long. They learn that death is part of the journey of life.

As we grow in maturity(not just age) I think death can be contemplated more with anticipation for it's end result - going home to be with the Lord// rather than because we fear it or simply because we have sinned. Easier said than done as we are all human and it is so natural to cling to life even when and sometimes even more when we are approaching the end of life as we know it here and now. However, if we let it>>>The mystery beckons.

I also think that the desire for the apparent good sin seems to bring can diminish as we walk the walk.that is, if we keep repenting. That is metanoia - on-going, daily conversion or turning away from sin. In other words it is an ongoing process. As St. Paul said, "Lest having preached to others we ourselves fall..."

But many in our world who have not 'tasted and seen how good are the things of God' still cling to what is not God (ungodly)and what seems to give immediate gratification. I think that varies according to the place where they are spiritually-- something we can never judgmentally determine in regards to another. So death can be very fearsome to them because what they have chosen in stead of God simply does not last and usually they know that. That is the sin - choosing something else in place of God. To find God something must be lost and that is what scares some. However,he has, as the poet, Thompson, says in The Hound of Heaven stored those things thought lost for us at home."

my 2 cents, will try for 5 cents next time.

Peace,

Mary Jo

Dear Ghazar,

I'm with you on this!

As I often explain it, man's fear of death and of becoming "not a big deal" (either as dust and ashes [for the atheist] or as a part of the heavenly court singing allelulia all day [for the believer]) causes him to go for sinful glory during his short time on earth. For both atheist and believer know that in heaven they'll never be the king.

To wit: Satan and his followers were "believers" but couldn't even stand the idea of playing second fiddle to God's highest creation, man. So they rebelled, as we likewise do in our sins.

Many men also find it difficult to accept the crucified Christ, the lamb led to the slaughter, as their king, and worse still, their role model.

Please search Romanides' writings. That master has done an excellent exegesis on Paul's concept of sin. The references to his writing were posted here on the Byzcath forum, (possibly by you?). You may want to do a search if you haven't already reviewed his work.

In Christ,
Andrew

But this fear, then, is a fear of insignificance, not death. And most folks no that neither will be king on earth. As with the Columbine example, one can use death itself to catapult into 15 minutes of fame.

Dear Andrew,

Thanks for sharing your insights into this teaching. Your thoughts and explanation are appreciated. Thanks for the advice to look at Romanides writings. You may be right about my posting them previously. I knew someone dealt with this at length but memory didn't serve. That's why I turn to my friends on the forum.

p.s. Actually Djs provides us with the place where Romanides treats this subject, in his former post above.

Djs,

Thank you, first of all, for the many links and quotes you provided me with in you former post. This is precisely what I was looking for. Thanks for taking the time to do this. It will assist me in the study I'm doing.

Secondly, as I said before, I'm not really interested in debating the truthfulness of our Orthodox teaching about the fear of death which compells us sin. I'm getting to the point that I do much less debating anymore. I usually come to the forum just for information help, and to share and receive ideas. Most people have made up their minds about most things and debating untill one's blue in the face makes little difference (and it seems to me to be a big waste of time).

But I will mention one thing in conjunction with the continued skepticism which you expressed about this teaching:

You don't seem to be aware of the fact that the "fear of death" of which we are speaking is not a conscious, deliberate thing. The point is that many times we don't even realize that we have it. If we have any intimation of it, it is something through sin which we attempt to supress. Therefore, most times man does not realize it is the fear of death which is compelling him to sin. Christ is the One who opens our eyes to this truth.

You can attribute sin to many more immediate concerns, but the point of our teaching is that it all boils down to the fact that sub-consciously, unregenerated man is deathbound and held captive by the power of Death.

This plays out differently throughout man's life. As children its shown in selfishness, a "me, me, me" perspective. As young adults and early adulthood it is characterized many times by excesses and indulgence in lustful immoralities. In older age it is expressed in quests for luxuries and finanacial excesses, etc. But at none of these points are we saying one stops and thinks about his mortality and then acts based on his conclusions about this. No, its more like a monkey on our back our whole lives or a dark cloud over our heads.

Actually, we sin to try and block out this fear and to stiffle it. Men build monuments to themselves in order to make their mark on the world. Why? Because they know that dark cloud over them means that they very soon will be leaving this world and that haunts them.

Of course we know Who is the only One who can get the monkey off of our backs and disperse the dark cloud. So my words should not be misconstrued by anyone that this is morbid or negative perspective. As St. Paul writes, where O Death is thy Victory?... We have the Victory through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Without getting into a big debate, I hope some of this will help you understand our teaching. Thanks again for the help.

your brother in Christ's Light,
Wm. Ghazar

Dear Ghazar,

Thanks for your last post and explanation. Even though it was not directed at me personally I wish to express my apologies if I sounded like I was debating. I guess I just got carried away with the thought and didn't refer to the original question as I might have. Used the topic as a kind of spring board for my own thoughts. Not my intention to debate the topic either; nor did I intend criticism in any way.

Your sister in Christ,

Mary Jo

Brothers and Sisters:

Bear with me a minute as I try to integrate this topic with some of my experiences. I have had a few people that I have ministered to and served as they struggled in their final illnesses.

Each person has come to a point where we have had a long, long conversation where they have revealed that the whole of their lives has become clear, that they no longer fear death, and that they are ready (perhaps even eager) to meet Christ and to accept whatever He might decide for them. Each one has said that he is keenly aware that he has many thngs he has done and that he is not particularly proud of, but also places complete trust in Christ and His Mercy. Each also mentions a profound peace that they have as a result of all this.

Each time that I have had this conversation with someone it has never occurred to me that this particular person was so close to his final call home. The conversation has only become clear to me as to what was happening after the usually swift translation of that person out of this life.

Comments?

In Christ,

BOB

Dear Bob,

Beautiful thoughts on the subject. I have also had the experience of seeing this process first hand. Thanks for sharing. I have been praying for Loretta since you posted. Keep us up on how it goes.

Your sister in Christ,

Mary Jo...who is pleased to be back on the forum. Absence makes one's heart grow.....

Dear Ghazar:

Perhaps you (and Andrew) mean "fear of death" as a rubric for alienation and the affliction and need that that entails. I would readily agree with this perspective. But a literal fear of death (even, curiously, a fear so subtle that those subject to it are unaware) is problematic, in its strong implications on understanding both of the fall, and the story of creation.

But Orthodox teaching on creation and the fall, from all that I have read, does not necessarily support, a dogmatic view that literal fear of death is the cause of sin. Some, like Fr. Romanides and his advocates, have this view. Others don't. Some insist on a literal view of Genesis creation on the grounds that old earth/evolution has death entering the world before sin. Otheres don't. What I question is the sugestion that this teaching, taken literally, is "fundamental" in Orthodoxy.

Dear Bob,

It sounds to me like some finally come to terms with this fear of death. Obviously only with Christ can we make sense of it.

Mary Jo,

No offense was taken at all. Feel free to share your thoughts. That's what the forum's for.

Dear Djs,

I understand your objection. The teaching seems pretty fundamental to me. If it doesn't to you, I respect that. The two Orthodox views you originally expressed seem compatible to me and vitrually saying the same thing in different ways.


Thanks again for the help. Fr. Romanides roots this teaching in that of St. Ignatius of Antioch which I will share with everyone from the link you provided.


1) Salvation (from corruption [ 1 ] ) and Ethics.

St. Ignatius writes that "the virginity of Mary and her offspring, as well as the death of the Lord, seized (elaven) the prince of this world: three thunderous mysteries wrought in the silence of God... Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult because He meditated the abolition of death." (Ign. Eph. 19) The abolition of death is non other than the seizure of Satan and was accomplished by these three mysteries. Satan here is closely related to death. By means of death and corruption the devil rules a captive humanity. (Heb 2:14-15.) "The sting of death is sin." (I Cor. 15:56.) "Sin reigned in death." (Rom. 5:21.) Because of the tyrant death man is unable to live according to his original destiny of selfless love. [ 2 ] He now has the instinct of self-preservation firmly rooted within him from birth. Because he lives constantly under the fear of death he continuously seeks bodily and psychological security, and thus becomes individualistically inclined and utilitarian in attitude. Sin is the failure of man to live according to his original destiny of selfless love which seeks not its own and this failure is rooted in the disease of death. Because death in the hands of Satan is the cause of sin, the kingdom of the devil and sin is destroyed by the "abolition of death." (Ign. Eph. 19.)

For Ignatius death and corruption is an abnormal condition which God came to destroy by the incarnation of His Son. The cosmology of St. Ignatius is neither monophysite or monothelite. Besides the will of God and the good, there exist now the temporary kingdom of Satan, who rules by death and corruption, and man oppressed by the devil but at the same time supported by God and free, at least according to will, to follow the one or the other. The world and God has each his own character - the world death, and God life. (Ign. Mag. 5.) Nevertheless, the material world is neither evil, nor the product of the fall. It exists now under the power of corruption (Rom. 8:20-22), but in Christ is being cleansed. Our Lord was "born and baptized that by His passion He mighty purify the water." (Ign. Eph. 18.) Life and immortality are not proper to man, but to God. "For were He to regard us according to our works we should cease to be." (Ign. Mag. 10.) God Himself was manifested in the flesh "for the renewal of eternal life." (Ign. Eph. 19.) Christ is the source of life (Ign. Eph. 3; Mag. 1; Smyr. 4) and "breathes immortality into the Church" (Ign. Eph. 17) "apart from whom we do not possess the true life." (Ign. Tral. 9.)

In the epistles of St. Ignatius the idea of natural immortality as a proper element of man's soul is completely absent. Both those before and after Christ have the death and resurrection of Christ as their source of life. Christ raised the prophets (Ign. Mag. 9) who "were saved through union with Jesus Christ." (Ign. Phil. 5.) He "the High Priest .. to whom the Holy of Holies has been committed ... is the door of the Father by which enter in Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the prophets, and the apostles, and the Church." (Ign. Phil. 9.) For the athletes of God "the prize is incorruption and eternal life." (Ign. Pol. 2.) "The gospel is the ornament of incorruption." (Ign. Phil. 9.) The Church has now peace by the flesh and blood and passion of Jesus Christ. (Ign. Tral. salutation.) The death of Christ "seized" the devil (Ign. Eph. 19) and as such is the source by which life was renewed (Ign. Mag. 9) that "by believing in His death you may escape from death." (Ign. Tral. 2.) "The passion of Christ ... is our resurrection." (Ign. Smyr. 5.) Those who ignore the death and the fleshly resurrection of Christ "have been denied by Him, being the advocates of death rather than of the truth." (Ign. Smyr. 5.) He who doen not confess him a "bearer of flesh ... has in fact altogether denied Him, being a bearer of death." (Ibid.) "... if they believe not in the blood of Christ, then to them there is judgment." (Ibid. 6.) "Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, in the midst of their disputes, incur death." (Ibid. 7.)

St. Ignatius emphatically and persistently points out the absolute necessity of faith in the real historical facts of the incarnation of God from the Virgin and of the death and fleshly resurrection of the God-man. (Tral. 2,9,10; Phil. 8,9; Smyr. 1,2,3,4,7.) "I desire to guard you... that you fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you attain to full assurance in regard to the birth, and passion, and resurrection which took place in the time of the government of Pontius Pilate.: (Mag. 11.) Faith in the flesh and spirit (Smyr. 3) of Christ is the very basis of the whole structure of New Testament and ancient Christian ethics. The life of selfless love and the successful struggle against the powers of death and the devil are impossible without communion with the real life-giving and resurrected flesh of the Lord. "Consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love, etc. ..." (Ibid. 6.) Most probably St. Ignatius is here referring to heretics with dualistic doctrines who ignore the true nature of material creation and by consequence the real meaning of death and corruption. It is possible to suppose that Ignatius is here exaggerating the inadequate ethics of the heretics he has in mind. Such a judgment is especially tempting when one realizes the fact that some of the heretics attacked by Ignatius admired and respected the Orthodox, even as happens today. "For what does any one profit me if he commends me but blasphemes my Lord, not confessing that He is possessed of flesh?" (Ibid. 5.) Such a value judgment, however, concerning such possible exaggeration can be made only when one uses as criteria ethical theories foreign to the basis of Ignatius' thought. The ethical criteria of St. Ignatius cannot be judged according to theories of natural moral law which conceive of man's quest for security and happiness as normal. It is quite obvious that Ignatius unites the possibility of a Christian ethic not to natural utilitarian principles of happiness, but solely to the resurrected flesh of Christ. This relationship of Christian ethics to the physical death and resurrection of Christ must be comprehended for an adequate understanding of the presuppositions of Ignatian ecclesiology.

Satan rules parasitically in creation and man by death. (Rom. 8:20-22; Heb. 2:14.) The children of God "through fear of death were all their lifetime guilty of bondage." (Heb. 2:15.) Because the rule of Satan consisted in the physical and material reality of death and corruption, the destruction of Satan could be brought about only by a real resurrection of the flesh - not by the escape of the soul from creation to some other supposed reality. By the indwelling of the life-giving flesh of Christ the faithful are liberated from slavery to the devil and by prayer, fasting, and corporate selfless love are enabled to overcome the consequences of death, viz. sin, by the grace of God in Christ and the Holy Spirit. "...the believing have in love the character of God the Father by Jesus Christ, by whom, if we are not in readiness to die into His passion, His life is not in us." (Mag. 5.) Both the ontological reality and the ethical meaning of the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ, are necessarily united and inseparable. The denial of the one leads to the rejection of the other. If the ontological and material power of "him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb. 2:14) has not been destroyed in the death and resurrection of Christ, then sin is still reigning. "If Christ be not raised ... you are yet in your sins." (I Cor. 15:17.) The struggle of Christians against sin and for salvation through selfless love would be useless and senseless. "Let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die." (Ibid. 15:32.) Besides the ethical implications of Christ's not having risen, there would be no hope of life after death. "Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." (Ibid. 15:18-19.) Therefore those who deny the real birth, death and resurrection of the incarnated Word of God are "advocates of death" and "bearers of death" and "their names" are "unbelief." (Smyr. 5.)

Christian ethics, therefore, for St. Ignatius is not a mere matter of preserving imagined innate moral laws of a supposed natural world for the attainment of personal happiness, whether immanent or transcedental. What is considered a natural quest for security and happiness is really a life according to the dictates of death, or the flesh dominated by death, constantly seeking bodily and psychological security of existence and worth. "... let no one look upon his neighbor after the flesh, but do you continually love each other in Jesus Christ." (Mag. 6.) Love in Christ differs sharply from the "kata sarka" eudaimonistic and utilitarian love of so-called natural humanity. Christian love "seeks not its own." (Rom. 14,7:15, 1-3; I Cor. 13,5:5, 15:10, 24, 29-11, 1:12, 25-26:13, 1ff: II Cor. 5,14-15; Gal. 5, 13:6, 1; Eph. 4,2; I Thes. 5,11.) "...exhort my brethren, in the name of Jesus Christ, that they love their wives, even as the Lord the Church." (Ign. Pol. 5.) This love is such that Christ "pleased not himself" (Rom. 15:3) but "He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves." (II Cor. 5:15.) For this reason a Christian wedding which has as its motive selfless love in Christ "is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church." (Eph. 5:32.) That is, it is a great mystery for Christians only, not because those outside the Church are not married, but because a Christian wedding takes place in another dimension. Therefore, "it becomes both men and women who marry, to form their union with the approval of the bishop, that their marriage be according to God, and not after their own lust." (Ign. Pol. 5.)

Because of the character of the principle of sin, perfection in this age is attained to not fully but in part according to the quality of the war carried against the powers of the devil. Good works are not part of a business agreement between God and man whereby God is obligated to reward external and utilitarian acts of charity. Rather good works are the product of the double struggle waged against the devil and for non-utilitarian selfless love for God and the neighbor. [ 3 ] Therefore communion of divine life through the human nature of Christ is not enough for salvation. The mystical (sacramental) life is not a magical guarantee of eternal life. Christians must also wage an intense war against Satan. " ... if we endure all the assaults of the prince of this world and escape them we shall attain to ( or enjoy) God." (Mag. 1)

It is only when one perceives the inseparable bond which exists in the Bible and ancient Church between the destructive powers of death, corruption and disease, and the person of Satan that he can comprehend the attitude of the first Christians toward death and martyrdom. "... they touched Him and believed, being supported by both His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, for they were found above death." (Smyr. 3.) He who fears death and is thereby s slave to its consequences is incapable of living according to Christ "by whom, if we are not in readiness to die into His passion, His life is not in us." (Mag. 5.) The canons of the Church are quite severe for those who would reject Christ because of fear. [ 4 ] The rejection of Christ for fear of death was considered as a fall into the hands of the devil. [ 5 ] Thus the persistent desire of St. Ignatius not to be hindered in his impending martyrdom was not the product of eschatological enthusiasm or psychopathic disturbances, but clearly the consequence of the realization of the inseparable relationship existing between death and Satan, who, with man as his co-worker, is himself the cause of ethical and physical evil. Condemned to death according to law already dead, it was impossible for St. Ignatius to seek to avoid martyrdom. This would have meant slavery to Satan. "The prince of this world would fain carry me away (or capture me), and corrupt my disposition (or opinion ) toward God. Let none of you, therefore, who are in Rome help him." (Ign. Rom. 7.)St. Ignatius was not a psychopath. On the contrary he had a keen understanding of biblical demonology (II Cor. 2:11) which not only dominated his own approach to faith and practice, but also regulated the whole theology of the ancient Church concerning martyrdom. "Pray for me that I may attain ... If I shall suffer you have wished well to me; but if I am rejected you have hated me." ( Ign. Rom. 8.) "... let cutting off of members; let shatterings of the whole body; and let all the evil torments of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ." (Ibid. 5.)

Dear Ghazar,
I also enjoy reading Fr. Romaindes; he is so innovative.
btw, I enjoyed very much your post on OC.net