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#37296 05/05/04 05:17 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Administrator:
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Adam asked:
I'm on a bit of a mission to find out how many Eastern Catholics wear black vestments on these most solemn of days.
I�m sure that Father Michael will respond and I look forward to his response. It is my understanding that the use of black among the Slavic Byzantines is a latinization from the Polish Roman Catholic.
Adam asked about Eastern Catholics' use of black vestments, and the Admin responded that the use of black among Slavic Byzantines is a latinization from the Polish Roman Catholics. In so doing, I understand the Admin does not restrict the "latinizing" use of black vestments to Slavic Byzatine Catholics.

Black Vestments [oca.org]

#37297 05/05/04 08:42 PM
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Father Deacon John,

I have no information about whether non-Slavic Byzantines (Catholic and/or Orthodox) use black vestments on Great Friday. It�s quite possible. I�ve been to several Greek Orthodox parishes for Jerusalem Matins on Great Friday but just don�t remember the color of the vestments worn by the clergy. I invite our non-Slavic participants to post on the specific customs in their Church.

It is my understanding that the custom in the OCA (the link that you posted) is to also use black vestments on Great Friday. My guess is that this custom in the OCA is not from the Russian usage itself but rather simply a holdover from their Slavic Greek Catholic origins.

In the Russian Orthodox Church, black vestments appear to have replaced crimson red ones for Great Friday in the early 19th century (but starting with Peter the Great in the back in the 17th century after his journeys West). I think the current custom is crimson for Vespers and the Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil on Holy Thursday and then black from the close of that Liturgy until the changing to white at the Holy Saturday Vespers and Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil.

In recent years Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics have been switching from black vestments to red vestments for Great Friday services. This seems to have been carried over to funerals, too, although the older custom is white.

Admin

#37298 05/05/04 08:50 PM
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Move to the real Julian Calendar and be done with it!
Christ is risen!
Incognitus

#37299 05/05/04 09:06 PM
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"I'm on a bit of a mission to find out how many Eastern Catholics wear black vestments on these most solemn of days. You seem clearly to do. Where did have them made? Is this a common thing in your eparchy?"

"My second question is for this overall discussion: why do we not simply transfer the Feast to another day during these exceptional years?"

Adam

Dear Adam,
Christ is Risen!
Yes, the one day I wear black vestments is on Good Friday, while I wear red for Lenten services.
Holoviak.com has some nice black vestments, also the nuns in Uniontown, PA can make them, although the ones I wear are very old and missing some of the parts given to me by my dad of blessed memory. To this day I don't know where he got them!

Nonetheless, when I was a kid, I was moved by how my home parish of St. Michael's in Passaic, NJ, was draped in black on Good Friday. You knew this was a special day in the life of the church without anyone uttering a word! Black is the color of mourning.

I understand that the Orthodox use red on festal days and happy celebrations, so the use of red as a "mourning color" is debatable.

I guess I was put in my place by the referral to the Trebnyk for"the rules" but since when do Byzantine Catholics all follow the rules???
No one has yet to mantion the fasting rules for that day. Do we fast on a great feast or celebrate it at Chilli's???

Also, (not directed at you Adam), is everything we do which differs from orthodox Orthodox practice considered a Latinization? Didn't any of our priests, bishops, deacons have a mind of their own, or did they just mimic either side? So much for the argument on patrimony! Obviously, we don't have one.

God bless you Adam!
Fr. M Sopoliga


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#37300 05/05/04 09:16 PM
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Dear Father Michael, CHRISTOS VOSKRESE! EVLOGITE! We Belarusian Orthodox also wear black during weekday Lenten services Father...and especially on Great and Holy Friday. On the Sundays of Great Lent we usually wear gold. The Lenten vestments come from NJ. There's a Belarusian matushka in Jackson at St. Mary's (OCA) parish that makes beautiful vestments and is very reasonable.

In the Risen Lord,
+Archimandrite Gregory, Chancellor, Belarusian Eparchy/Ecumenical Patriarchate


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
#37301 05/05/04 09:23 PM
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My second question is for this overall discussion: why do we not simply transfer the Feast to another day during these exceptional years?

Adam,

Sorry I did not respond to your second question.
I think that when certain feasts of great import fall together, then they need to be celebrated together in the best way possible...though the occurences are rare.
I have no problem with that.

I do find difficulty with Roman Catholics moving Ascension Thursday to Sunday. After all, It's Ascension Thursday right?

Other than that, and I know I will be crucified for my pastoral prudence, but, I have no problem with moving a feast day to a Sunday, to get the most people attending and participating, and learning of the feast.

Who's to certify that Jesus was born on December 25th, or January 6th?
It's the message of the Feast not necessarily the date. This is especially true in the mission parishes, and parishes like mine who cover a 75 mile radius.

I can celebrate the feast day on the day of the week with 5 people, or on the Sunday with 50.
I opt for having more people and moving the feast day.

Good Friday/Annunciation....may be another story....while the Trebnyk gives us the "rules" as mentioned before, perhaps it would be better celebrate it on another day.....unless we join the Orthodox and all go back on the Julian Calendar, named, by the way.....after Our Holy Ecumenical Pontiff Pope Julius! Oh my!

Fr.MJS


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#37302 05/05/04 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by FrMichaelJS:
Good Friday/Annunciation....may be another story....while the Trebnyk gives us the "rules" as mentioned before, perhaps it would be better celebrate it on another day.....unless we join the Orthodox and all go back on the Julian Calendar, named, by the way.....after Our Holy Ecumenical Pontiff Pope Julius! Oh my!

Fr.MJS
Fr. Michael,

Christ is risen!

That is of little consequence. Good Friday and Annunciation can coincide on the Julian Calendar as well.

Tony

#37303 05/05/04 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by FrMichaelJS:

I guess I was put in my place by the referral to the Trebnyk for"the rules" but since when do Byzantine Catholics all follow the rules???
No one has yet to mantion the fasting rules for that day. Do we fast on a great feast or celebrate it at Chilli's???
Fr. Michael,

Actually it was The Typikon that was referred, not the Trebnyk.

Good point about rules. Rules are for fools.

Tony

#37304 05/05/04 10:39 PM
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Originally posted by FrMichaelJS:
.....unless we join the Orthodox and all go back on the Julian Calendar, named, by the way.....after Our Holy Ecumenical Pontiff Pope Julius! Oh my!

Fr.MJS
Fr Michael,

I don't know if you jest. All scholars attribute the Julian Calendar to another pontiff, the pontifex maximus, Julius Caesar.

#37305 05/05/04 10:45 PM
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Fr. Michael,

Our Administrator has already answered your question re fasting:

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Originally posted by Administrator:
Great and Holy Thursday would be a day of fasting, but oil and wine would be allowed after the Vespers and Divine Liturgy.

Great and Holy Friday would be a day of strict fast, but wine would be allowed after the Vespers and Divine Liturgy.
Justin

#37306 05/05/04 10:47 PM
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Originally posted by Tony:
That is of little consequence. Good Friday and Annunciation can coincide on the Julian Calendar as well.
And this year, Annunciation coicided with Great Wednesday on the Julian Calendar.

Dave

#37307 05/05/04 11:19 PM
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Always willing to learn....and be corrected, as I stand, not to mention stirr the proverbial pot.
Thinking is good! Bantering IS better!
Fr.MJS


Fr.Michael
#37308 05/05/04 11:29 PM
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Ευλογισον Πατερ!

Quote
Originally posted by FrMichaelJS:
I guess I was put in my place by the referral to the Trebnyk for"the rules" but since when do Byzantine Catholics all follow the rules???
Only if they're responsible and have respect for the Typicon, like Russian Catholics do, unlike most of the Ruthenians. I'm shocked that this would even be a matter for discussion, let alone joking.

Quote
No one has yet to mantion the fasting rules for that day. Do we fast on a great feast or celebrate it at Chilli's???
False choices. Perhaps the good father is not aware that we celebrate it in church and we fast, although on Annunciation fish is usually allowed, unless it falls during Great Week - in which case it's an oil and wine day.

Quote
Also, (not directed at you Adam), is everything we do which differs from orthodox Orthodox practice considered a Latinization?
Where the Ruthenians are concerned, where they differ from Orthodox practice (both old and new rites), YES.

Quote
Didn't any of our priests, bishops, deacons have a mind of their own, or did they just mimic either side? So much for the argument on patrimony! Obviously, we don't have one.
Ah yes, liturgically-aware clergy such as Elko.

#37309 05/05/04 11:32 PM
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Of course, the stupidest thing about the Gregorian calendar and paschalion is that it means Kyriopascha can never happen. And if anybody needs to ask what that is...

#37310 05/05/04 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by Edward Yong:
Of course, the stupidest thing about the Gregorian calendar and paschalion is that it means Kyriopascha can never happen. And if anybody needs to ask what that is...
Christ is risen!

Following the Gregorian calendar and using the Western Paschalion Kyriopascha should still be possible as it is using the Julian calendar and the Eastern/Julian reckoning of Pascha. What does not allow it is the mixed calendar of following Julian for Pascha and Gregorian for the fixed feasts. But, that is another issue.

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