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I agree with Theophan. The Orthodox and Greek Catholics exist not because of the people that are alive today. Kings and countries that no longer exist created the divide. Today we are closer than ever, if not sharing communion, we are friends. The Greek Catholics come to our chicken dinners and feastdays. They come to our funerals. We go to their funerals and buy their ethnic food. At Vladkya Daniel's elevation to the episcopate I sang in the choir standing by people from the Greek Catholic Cathedral choir. It was nice, they came, they sang, they supported us. It is a far better situation than say in Johnstown when armed security had to protect the Greek CAtholic church and the newly formed Christ the Saviour ACROD parish. Not that old wounds are not still open, i've taken flak from some Greek Catholics for the split that formed my Orthodox church. I wasn't alive then but it is still held against me. My family never gave the family members that stayed in the GreekCatholic parish any slack for doing so.
ACROD when formed, and the late Metropolitan Nicholas supported this attitude, that they did not want to have Russian small traditions take over the Rusyn/Western Ukrainian small traditions.
Yes, in my experience the parishes formed by St. Alexis Toth in my area still sing some Carpatho stuff and have some carpatho pracitces.
however, they are completely OCA (which I guess is ROCOR lite in liturgics).
I believe at the time when St. Alexis helped convert the Greek Catholic parishes the recent immigrants didn't have the voice or say to protect their traditions, or maybe they were lead to believe that any of their non-Russian practices were Catholic.
When the ACROD was formed the people had the voice and such to realise that they wanted to preserve their small traditions.
Over time the latinizations have been slowly removed. Yes, they use a curtain in the old country behind the royal doors, that is one thing I wish all ACROD parishes would use. I think the ACROD pew book severely limits the prostopinije as there are loadsI of other tunes that the book leaves out. I think the antiphons need to be fixed, add in the movable parts of them like the Greeks/Antiochians. The little litanies in between the antiphons need to be brought back. The litany for catechumens must be brought back. The closing of the royal doors at appropriate times needs to be brought back as well. These aren't Russian practices. Matins needs to be taught instead of Te Jesi Boh being sang while the deacon/priest incenses before Blessed is the Kingdom.
i'm mixed on ACROD Pascha on Sunday morning. It came in handy this year when I had a 5 month old though, so I'm not going to complain. As Metropolian Nicholas once told me,"I took the diocese 80% Orthodox in practice and it is up to the next bishop to take the diocese the whole way." I must say, the ACROD has come a long way since the split. Metropolitan nicolas wouldn't let clerics wear anything but a black cassock, he said it was Russian to wear any other colour. He wouldn't let his priests wear long hair and he wasn't always happy if a priest had a beard. The ACROD and Ruthenians have both preserved the small traditions without selling out their customs.

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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Converted Viking
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Originally Posted by ajk
And what did Fr. Alexis accomplish for his people, his church? Russification and assimilation and the effective loss of their unique identity?

And what exactly did those who chose not to follow St Alexis accomplish? Latinization and assimilation and the loss of their Traditions.

Alexandr

Alexander:

Dead on
!

Seraphim
That there is a sui iuris Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh proves you wrong. It has emerged -- is emerging -- from the period of Latinizations and has retained as a church its unique heritage and traditions. Does the OCA use a Ruthenian recension for the liturgy? In how many of its parishes does one hear Carpathian chant? The sui iuris Church of Pittsburgh is the (in via) triumph of distinctiveness over assimilation (attrition is a separate issue as is self-destruction).
I know of two maybe three oca parishes locally, well within an hour of me, that use prostopinije and darn good prostopinije at that, i believe archbishop job's prostopinije. Far better than what came out of pittsburgh in recent years.

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I think some of the latinizations that Alexandr speaks of that the coal mining rusnak immigrants would have seen in the greek catholic parishes were
no icon screens
rosaries
first communion at age 6 or so
confirmation (not sure on this)
stations of the cross
benediction of the blessed sacrament
those little holy water dishes at the entrance to the church like roman catholic's use
more latin type vestments
latin catechism
indulgences
novenas
statues in the church
julian calender
forty hours devotion
may crownings
low masses (where antiphons were skipped and readings started the liturgy)
spoken liturgies
priests wearing biretta hats
roman catholic titles for priests
confessionals
mandatory celibacy for clergy
no deacons
no readers
no subdeacons
slavonic
and then the Greek Catholic/Byzantine Catholic liturgy looks different today than it did even 5 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Pyrohy
I know of two maybe three oca parishes locally, well within an hour of me, that use prostopinije and darn good prostopinije at that, i believe archbishop job's prostopinije. Far better than what came out of pittsburgh in recent years.
Good for them. Have they retained it from the start or is it a recovering of their heritage? Is it not the case that most OCA Rusyn parishes have not retained the Carpathian chant? Do they all not use a Russian recension of the liturgy? What is "archbishop job's prostopinije"? If it's as good as you say, "pittsburgh" should consider it. And though I'm not a fan of the RDL promulgations, much of the resultant chant is a legitimate and faithful rendering of prostopinije. [BTW, the book is teal, I believe it is flawed in some settings and its exclusive imposition: it is a "tyrant" but not a "terror". Are you familiar with it?]

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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Where will they hear, for example, Preterp'vyj? It sure won't be Munhall.
Is this so: no singing of Preterp'vyj in Munhall?

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Pyrohy
I think some of the latinizations that Alexandr speaks of that the coal mining rusnak immigrants would have seen in the greek catholic parishes were
no icon screens
rosaries
first communion at age 6 or so
confirmation (not sure on this)
stations of the cross
benediction of the blessed sacrament
those little holy water dishes at the entrance to the church like roman catholic's use
more latin type vestments
latin catechism
indulgences
novenas
statues in the church
julian calender
forty hours devotion
may crownings
low masses (where antiphons were skipped and readings started the liturgy)
spoken liturgies
priests wearing biretta hats
roman catholic titles for priests
confessionals
mandatory celibacy for clergy
no deacons
no readers
no subdeacons
slavonic
and then the Greek Catholic/Byzantine Catholic liturgy looks different today than it did even 5 years ago.

An interesting list, and surely no honest and knowledgeable Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic would doubt that it is historically accurate to a large degree, but certainly NOT representative of the status quo now that much has been restored. We are so very fortunate to have had a long-standing Eastern European Pontiff who "got it". Pope Benedict XVI seems equally supportive. Our hierarchs have taken full advantage of this climate and have worked to restore our traditions (admittedly, not without some controversy at times (e.g. the RDL), but nonetheless).

By observation, point by point, I offer the following based on my own witness of the Ruthenian Church in my lifetime (for reference sake, I’m in my mid 40s) ...

I have not been to a single Ruthenian church or service in the entire Metropolia without an icon screen, including most recently the very young mission parish in Knoxville, TN attended by brother. Before they had a humble temple of their own, the faithful there had gathered hours in advance of Divine Liturgy to erect a rather lovely "mobile" icon screen and other appropriate accoutrements. Also, we grew up in what started as a mission parish (circa 1969), and our church building was formerly a Roman Rite church of Spanish Mission architectural style. Although we were a poor parish at the onset, it did not take long for us to properly adorn our temple in true Byzantine style. We had at first an inherited icon screen installed in the early 70s, and labored steadily with all the rest. Every icon in that inherited icon screen was eventually replaced or restored.

Yes, rosaries continue to this day, but alongside Akathists to the Theotokos, which are very well attended in my current parish. What's wrong with praying to the Mother of God in any form or manner? I do believe she never ignores a “tearful plea” from her “faithful children”, irrespective of how that plea may be rendered. BTW – I often join the faithful at the end of the Rosary and lead in chanting “Dostojno Jest”, just to end with a Byzantine touch.

Now “First Solemn Penance”, which surely should be rendered when our children become of sufficient age to appreciate and appropriately prepare for this Sacrament.

My three children were all full invested in the church via the restored Rite and Mystery of Christian Initiation, in which they received all three so defined initiating Holy Sacraments at the same time.

I have not seen stations in our churches in over 30 years. These were promptly removed from the mission parish I attended in my youth before we began having services in the church building purchased from the nearby Latin Rite parish.

I have never seen, witnessed nor heard of the benediction being done in our churches in my entire lifetime.

I haven't seen the bowls in a long time either, but what's wrong with a little Holy Water now and then? Besides, our frequent Roman Catholic guest are disoriented enough ...

I have never seen a priest, deacon or bishop vested in anything other than vestments appropriate to our tradition, INCLUDING the many bi-ritual priests that I have met over the years that truly enjoy celebrating the Divine Liturgy in our Rite. As a matter of interest, it was a bi-ritual priest serving my former home parish who was the first in the Eparchy of Passaic after the restoration of the full rite of initiation to perform baptism by full immersion (on my niece and Goddaughter, much to the surprise of my sister-in-law).

Yes, it is true that I was schooled using the Baltimore Catechism as part of my preparation for what was then our equivalent of First Holy Communion. That said, I think I’m a better Catholic for having had that exposure. While we have used a program of Eastern Christian Formation (a joint effort of the Eastern Rite churches in America) for many years now, and I have been a Catechist for some time, I do feel that our children sometimes lack a full appreciation of some of the basics of Catholic Catechism (definition of sin, types of sin, etc.) that get drilled into our Latin Rite cousins on at least two occasions in their youth.

As for indulgences and novenas, again I’ve never been exposed to this in our church in my entire lifetime. Nor have I ever seen a statue of any kind. I have seen an increasing number of icons, Our Lady of Perpetual Help, in particular, alongside the statutes in many Roman Rite churches.

Yes, we use the Julian calendar. No, we do NOT celebrate the same cycle of feasts as in the Latin Rite.

Forty hour devotions? The only things occurring in increments of 40 in my church are forty day periods of fast and repentance, including the current Filipovka (St. Phillip’s Fast).

May crownings? Maybe a few May weddings!

Low Mass? No, our Divine Liturgy is rather "dense", and we still labor to keep it to a one hour period.

Spoken Liturgies? I have only heard of this occurring when no cantor is present, and certainly not on the Sabbath. Our priest has been having privately intentioned Liturgies during the week for awhile now, during working hours, and reports that those few in attendance have surprising participated fully by chanting to the best of their ability when no cantor is present.

Priests wearing biretta hats? Haven’t seen that, but I know Bishop John of Parma normally turns a head or two with his frequent use of “traditional headgear”!

Roman catholic titles for priests? Haven’t heard of anyone becoming a Msgr. in awhile. Archpriest? – yes. Mitred Archpriest? – yes. The restoration of these titles and usage were incorporated into the revised Particular Law for the Byzantine-Ruthenian Church in the USA, promulgated on June 29, 1999.

Haven’t been in a confessional in a very long time. In my current parish (also using a former Roman Rite church building), we store music and church supplies in the areas which once were designated as confessionals. Even though I’m a cantor and frequently visit those “closets”, I don’t think that counts!

Mandatory celibacy for clergy? Isn’t that what got us started with Latinizations in the first place? Assimilate or be terminated – sounds like a science fiction movie plot! Interestingly enough, I was raised in a parish served by a married (with children) priest. While living and working in the metro Detroit area some years back, my youngest son was initiated by a retired priest who was himself the son of a priest. That same parish was later served by a married (without children) priest. While there, Bishop John of Parma ordained a married (with grown children) deacon to the priesthood. I attended the ordination ceremony. Needless to say, his vow of chaste living was rather humorous to all, including his wife and children in attendance. Despite the very real historic controversy relating to this subject, it always amuses me personally, because I have lived with a married priesthood for a significant part of my religious life, entirely as a Byzantine Catholic.

No deacons? Readers? Subdeacons? We now have a permanent diaconate. I know of at least one ordained reader in service (who admittedly is likely to continue to study for the deaconate, and may in fact be doing so now). We also have well established diaconate formation programs.

Slavonic? I now serve as cantor with a priest who was raised Roman Catholic. He is not an “ethnic” Ruthenian. He chants some of the best OCS I’ve ever heard. We do so in our parish on select occasions and for pre-selected portions of the Sunday Divine Liturgy (with notice to the parishioners) at the request of our parish family interested in maintaining exposure to the tradition, within guidelines that ensure all can pray and chant this most significant prayers within the Liturgy (so we rarely chant the Lord's Prayer or Creed in OCS, for example). Who have been the most vocal proponents of this? Our ByzanTEEN group!

We’ve come a long way [back]!

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Originally Posted by Curious Joe
Originally Posted by Orthodox Pyrohy
I think some of the latinizations that Alexandr speaks of that the coal mining rusnak immigrants would have seen in the greek catholic parishes were
no icon screens
rosaries
first communion at age 6 or so
confirmation (not sure on this)
stations of the cross
benediction of the blessed sacrament
those little holy water dishes at the entrance to the church like roman catholic's use
more latin type vestments
latin catechism
indulgences
novenas
statues in the church
julian calender
forty hours devotion
may crownings
low masses (where antiphons were skipped and readings started the liturgy)
spoken liturgies
priests wearing biretta hats
roman catholic titles for priests
confessionals
mandatory celibacy for clergy
no deacons
no readers
no subdeacons
slavonic
and then the Greek Catholic/Byzantine Catholic liturgy looks different today than it did even 5 years ago.

An interesting list, and surely no honest and knowledgeable Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic would doubt that it is historically accurate to a large degree, but certainly NOT representative of the status quo now that much has been restored. We are so very fortunate to have had a long-standing Eastern European Pontiff who "got it". Pope Benedict XVI seems equally supportive. Our hierarchs have taken full advantage of this climate and have worked to restore our traditions (admittedly, not without some controversy at times (e.g. the RDL), but nonetheless).

By observation, point by point, I offer the following based on my own witness of the Ruthenian Church in my lifetime (for reference sake, I’m in my mid 40s) ...

I have not been to a single Ruthenian church or service in the entire Metropolia without an icon screen, including most recently the very young mission parish in Knoxville, TN attended by brother. Before they had a humble temple of their own, the faithful there had gathered hours in advance of Divine Liturgy to erect a rather lovely "mobile" icon screen and other appropriate accoutrements. Also, we grew up in what started as a mission parish (circa 1969), and our church building was formerly a Roman Rite church of Spanish Mission architectural style. Although we were a poor parish at the onset, it did not take long for us to properly adorn our temple in true Byzantine style. We had at first an inherited icon screen installed in the early 70s, and labored steadily with all the rest. Every icon in that inherited icon screen was eventually replaced or restored.

Yes, rosaries continue to this day, but alongside Akathists to the Theotokos, which are very well attended in my current parish. What's wrong with praying to the Mother of God in any form or manner? I do believe she never ignores a “tearful plea” from her “faithful children”, irrespective of how that plea may be rendered. BTW – I often join the faithful at the end of the Rosary and lead in chanting “Dostojno Jest”, just to end with a Byzantine touch.

Now “First Solemn Penance”, which surely should be rendered when our children become of sufficient age to appreciate and appropriately prepare for this Sacrament.

My three children were all full invested in the church via the restored Rite and Mystery of Christian Initiation, in which they received all three so defined initiating Holy Sacraments at the same time.

I have not seen stations in our churches in over 30 years. These were promptly removed from the mission parish I attended in my youth before we began having services in the church building purchased from the nearby Latin Rite parish.

I have never seen, witnessed nor heard of the benediction being done in our churches in my entire lifetime.

I haven't seen the bowls in a long time either, but what's wrong with a little Holy Water now and then? Besides, our frequent Roman Catholic guest are disoriented enough ...

I have never seen a priest, deacon or bishop vested in anything other than vestments appropriate to our tradition, INCLUDING the many bi-ritual priests that I have met over the years that truly enjoy celebrating the Divine Liturgy in our Rite. As a matter of interest, it was a bi-ritual priest serving my former home parish who was the first in the Eparchy of Passaic after the restoration of the full rite of initiation to perform baptism by full immersion (on my niece and Goddaughter, much to the surprise of my sister-in-law).

Yes, it is true that I was schooled using the Baltimore Catechism as part of my preparation for what was then our equivalent of First Holy Communion. That said, I think I’m a better Catholic for having had that exposure. While we have used a program of Eastern Christian Formation (a joint effort of the Eastern Rite churches in America) for many years now, and I have been a Catechist for some time, I do feel that our children sometimes lack a full appreciation of some of the basics of Catholic Catechism (definition of sin, types of sin, etc.) that get drilled into our Latin Rite cousins on at least two occasions in their youth.

As for indulgences and novenas, again I’ve never been exposed to this in our church in my entire lifetime. Nor have I ever seen a statue of any kind. I have seen an increasing number of icons, Our Lady of Perpetual Help, in particular, alongside the statutes in many Roman Rite churches.

Yes, we use the Julian calendar. No, we do NOT celebrate the same cycle of feasts as in the Latin Rite.

Forty hour devotions? The only things occurring in increments of 40 in my church are forty day periods of fast and repentance, including the current Filipovka (St. Phillip’s Fast).

May crownings? Maybe a few May weddings!

Low Mass? No, our Divine Liturgy is rather "dense", and we still labor to keep it to a one hour period.

Spoken Liturgies? I have only heard of this occurring when no cantor is present, and certainly not on the Sabbath. Our priest has been having privately intentioned Liturgies during the week for awhile now, during working hours, and reports that those few in attendance have surprising participated fully by chanting to the best of their ability when no cantor is present.

Priests wearing biretta hats? Haven’t seen that, but I know Bishop John of Parma normally turns a head or two with his frequent use of “traditional headgear”!

Roman catholic titles for priests? Haven’t heard of anyone becoming a Msgr. in awhile. Archpriest? – yes. Mitred Archpriest? – yes. The restoration of these titles and usage were incorporated into the revised Particular Law for the Byzantine-Ruthenian Church in the USA, promulgated on June 29, 1999.

Haven’t been in a confessional in a very long time. In my current parish (also using a former Roman Rite church building), we store music and church supplies in the areas which once were designated as confessionals. Even though I’m a cantor and frequently visit those “closets”, I don’t think that counts!

Mandatory celibacy for clergy? Isn’t that what got us started with Latinizations in the first place? Assimilate or be terminated – sounds like a science fiction movie plot! Interestingly enough, I was raised in a parish served by a married (with children) priest. While living and working in the metro Detroit area some years back, my youngest son was initiated by a retired priest who was himself the son of a priest. That same parish was later served by a married (without children) priest. While there, Bishop John of Parma ordained a married (with grown children) deacon to the priesthood. I attended the ordination ceremony. Needless to say, his vow of chaste living was rather humorous to all, including his wife and children in attendance. Despite the very real historic controversy relating to this subject, it always amuses me personally, because I have lived with a married priesthood for a significant part of my religious life, entirely as a Byzantine Catholic.

No deacons? Readers? Subdeacons? We now have a permanent diaconate. I know of at least one ordained reader in service (who admittedly is likely to continue to study for the deaconate, and may in fact be doing so now). We also have well established diaconate formation programs.

Slavonic? I now serve as cantor with a priest who was raised Roman Catholic. He is not an “ethnic” Ruthenian. He chants some of the best OCS I’ve ever heard. We do so in our parish on select occasions and for pre-selected portions of the Sunday Divine Liturgy (with notice to the parishioners) at the request of our parish family interested in maintaining exposure to the tradition, within guidelines that ensure all can pray and chant this most significant prayers within the Liturgy (so we rarely chant the Lord's Prayer or Creed in OCS, for example). Who have been the most vocal proponents of this? Our ByzanTEEN group!

We’ve come a long way [back]!

Normally I wouldn't include both of the posts I want to comment on, but this is an exception.

First as to Orthodox Pyrohy's list. While much of what he lists may have been true by say, 1950, during the first twenty five years of the 20th century, many of these were not the case as the first Rusyn immigrants came to America. (I am trying to remember what my dad told me as he grew up at SS. Peter and Paul Greek Catholic Church in Elizabethport, NJ and he and his family left in the 1930's during the schism to found St. Nicholas Orthodox Church in Bayway.) It is true that the rosary was a practice, first communion was also (this was also true in many Metropolia parishes through the 1960's I might add....), some churches had stations of the cross, some had holy water dishes, the catechism was the one used in Europe as developed with Duchnovic's Chilb Duse and the so-called 'Rusky Bukvar', lace sticherions were common, some had may crowning, there were low and spoken masses in some parishes, there were Msgr. and some priests wore birettas, the lower orders (not common in the villages, but existing in the larger cities in Europe) did not come to America. There began to be some use of indulgences and novenas. In other words, what was seen in the Old Country was initially brought over here.

I think that most here would concur that the removal of icon screens in the Byzantine Catholic Church gathered momentum under Bishop Elko in the 1950's along with the introduction of statues.

As far as ACROD is concerned, most of the pre-existing, pre-war latinizations are gone. As to the Liturgy, it generally follows the pattern of the Greeks (including the non-recitation of the little petitions and the omissions of the catachumens). Issues such as opening and closing doors, curtains etc... do vary within Orthodoxy and remain a source of controversy. Just check any Orthodox board and see the back and forth on that. The typical answer to 'Isn't that an Orthodox requirement?' is usually 'It depends' on questions ranging from praxis to singing. As to the Paschal liturgy time, again this is a subject of debate although it has become the normative practice in the States over the past thirty years.

Finally, I don't want to speculate about St. Alexis and his feelings about the Russification which occurred following his conversion. However, I believe that he would have been more at home today at Christ the Savior Cathedral in Johnstown rather than at Christ the Savior in Moscow. Particularly when the prostopenije was chanted with joy and abandon! Just my opinion.

I base it upon this little anecdote: I remember finding a YouTube video from St. Mary's OCA Cathedral in Minneapolis (St. Alexis parish where he confronted Archbishop Ireland) a few years ago. I was excited as the preview picture showed the saintly 'Bishop' blessing the children. Expecting to hear them joyfully sing 'O Kto Kto, Nikolaja L'ubit' as generations of Rusyn children had done over the centuries, I was sorely disappointed to hear them sing instead the Troparion of the Feast, Tone 4 Russian Chant. St. Alexis would have not heard anything like that in Johnstown or Munhall for that matter. I rest my case.

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Originally Posted by Curious Joe
An interesting list, and surely no honest and knowledgeable Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic would doubt that it is historically accurate to a large degree, but certainly NOT representative of the status quo now that much has been restored. We are so very fortunate...
Yes we are. The details provided give a proper portrayal of the BCC rather than the caricature
Originally Posted by Orthodox Pyrohy
Latin Rite Lite with smells and bells.
Originally Posted by Curious Joe
Yes, we use the Julian calendar. No, we do NOT celebrate the same cycle of feasts as in the Latin Rite.
One small correction: The BCC uses the Gregorian calendar and Paschalion not the Julian, however, as stated we also have a Byzantine Typicon. The calendar issue is of course a relevant, proper point to an unbiased discussion, contrary to what has been stated:
Originally Posted by theophan
...Let's stay on target with the veneration of this saint and stop the controversary about calendars and who best preserved the Ruthenian rescension and in what context.

If we can't do this, this thread will be closed.
It is relevant within the context where it was raised:
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
... Your for-bearers would not even recognize your Calendar,...
because, in fact, it was the calendar of the emigrant Ruthenians to whom Fr. Alexis was trying to minister. But it should be noted that this "recognize" objection is a non-issue: the BCC resolved the calendar transition successfully; and our people in Europe, who use the Julian calendar, have no problem recognizing us as their counterparts. Actually, they would seem to be something of a control group: They suffered to remain Catholic; what would they say of Fr. Alexis? As the original post puts it:
Originally Posted by Thessalonius Monk
...What to make of him as a Eastern Catholic.

Originally Posted by Curious Joe
We’ve come a long way [back]!
Yes, we have, and, I stress again, without resorting to schism.

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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Curious Joe
We’ve come a long way [back]!
Yes, we have, and, I stress again, without resorting to schism.

St Alexis did not resort to schism. He returned those that were in schism to the bosom of the Church.

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Anybody who sees moving from Catholic to Orthodox, or from Orthodox to Catholic, as "schism" misses the point and is part of the problem.

As for me (a non-Slavic Ruthenian convert), I would have followed St. Alexis, and think he was right in his actions. He surrendered the ethnicity of his faith to preserve its right practice and theology, something that has still not been fully restored in the Church that rejected him. While it is sinful that he was forced to make that choice, I believe he made the proper one, and don't believe it was really a choice at all.

As the quote by Melkite Archbishop Joseph Tawil in Neil's signature reminds us, "One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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I just realized that despite moderator warnings, that I am being sucked back into this one. Thessalonius Monk; St Alexis was a champion of the Carpatho-Russian people and courageously stood up for those that God entrusted to his care. He is counted amongst the saints of the Orthodox Church and has a large following amongst the Byzantine Catholics. As I previously stated, have no qualms about venerating or praying for his intercession.

Mr AJK,

If you want to start a polemical thread about schism, start one in Town Hall. As some of us are fasting right now, I would prefer to postpone until after The Nativity of Christ, (Jan 7 N.S.), however, if you insist, we could do it now. I do caution you, however, brush up on your patristics. As I am obviously poorly balanced because of my adherence to the Old Calendar [sic], please use small words for us undereducated peons.

Oh, and maybe to make it interesting, lets conduct the entire debate in Church Slavonic.

Александр

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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Curious Joe
We’ve come a long way [back]!
Yes, we have, and, I stress again, without resorting to schism.

St Alexis did not resort to schism. He returned those that were in schism to the bosom of the Church.
Your statement presumes a lot. One thing that strikes me is that the motivations given for his leaving the Catholic Church for the Orthodox are matters of discipline and culture and ritual identity but not faith, theology. They are important and just but not essentials. Fr. Alexis was well educated: "...he served in local parishes, as diocesan chancellor, and as professor and director at the Greek Catholic seminary of Prešov." ( link [en.wikipedia.org] ) What were, I wonder, his views of Catholic theology versus Orthodox before his meeting with Bishop Ireland? Had he remained in Prešov would he be an Orthodox saint?

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My late father firmly believed that without the schisms and rebellion against the latinizing actions of Rome in the first half of the twentieth century, there would be no Ruthentian/Rusyn church in America today - either Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic. We would all be Roman Catholics with a vestige of old world customs retained. He also believed (keep in mind he was an Orthodox priest)without the refusal of the Blessed priest-martyrs and other faithful to submit to the forced liquidation of the Greek Catholic church by the Russians, there would be none left in Europe either.

Last edited by DMD; 12/14/11 07:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
If you want to start a polemical thread about schism,...
I merely want to state my case supported by reason and facts, even though it may be -- is it seems on this forum -- a minority or unpopular opinion. I am always enlightened to see anew a perspective or a completely different and unanticipated viewpoint, even ones that I do not share. Let's just attend to the issues.

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Originally Posted by DMD
My late father firmly believed that without the schisms and rebellion against the latinizing actions of Rome in the first half of the twentieth century, there would be no Ruthentian/Rusyn church in America today - either Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic...
I'm saying just the opposite (nothing against your father of blessed memory); we both speculate. It seems that Rome cared not a hoot that so many of the Ruthenian emigrants left for Orthodoxy. A Catholic pope and saint, Pius X, terribly misreading the situation, almost killed us -- Ea Semper -- with what I believe was his genuine expressed love for us. Yet, those who remained with Rome and on the brink of self-destruction were delivered, and given the opportunity we have today. Do we on this forum, Catholic and non-Catholic, really want unity? Why should I not feel that it is the BCC that is living, though much still in via, the desired unity?...and has paid a price.

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