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#37311 05/06/04 12:02 AM
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Originally posted by Edward Yong:
Ευλογισον Πατερ!

Quote
Originally posted by FrMichaelJS:
[b]I guess I was put in my place by the referral to the Trebnyk for"the rules" but since when do Byzantine Catholics all follow the rules???
Only if they're responsible and have respect for the Typicon, like Russian Catholics do, unlike most of the Ruthenians. I'm shocked that this would even be a matter for discussion, let alone joking.

Quote
No one has yet to mantion the fasting rules for that day. Do we fast on a great feast or celebrate it at Chilli's???
False choices. Perhaps the good father is not aware that we celebrate it in church and we fast, although on Annunciation fish is usually allowed, unless it falls during Great Week - in which case it's an oil and wine day.

Quote
Also, (not directed at you Adam), is everything we do which differs from orthodox Orthodox practice considered a Latinization?
Where the Ruthenians are concerned, where they differ from Orthodox practice (both old and new rites), YES.

Quote
Didn't any of our priests, bishops, deacons have a mind of their own, or did they just mimic either side? So much for the argument on patrimony! Obviously, we don't have one.
Ah yes, liturgically-aware clergy such as Elko. [/b]


Fr.Michael
#37312 05/06/04 12:06 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by FrMichaelJS:
Quote
Originally posted by Edward Yong:
[b] Ευλογισον Πατερ!

Quote
Originally posted by FrMichaelJS:
[b]I guess I was put in my place by the referral to the Trebnyk for"the rules" but since when do Byzantine Catholics all follow the rules???
Only if they're responsible and have respect for the Typicon, like Russian Catholics do, unlike most of the Ruthenians. I'm shocked that this would even be a matter for discussion, let alone joking.

Quote
No one has yet to mantion the fasting rules for that day. Do we fast on a great feast or celebrate it at Chilli's???
False choices. Perhaps the good father is not aware that we celebrate it in church and we fast, although on Annunciation fish is usually allowed, unless it falls during Great Week - in which case it's an oil and wine day.

Quote
Also, (not directed at you Adam), is everything we do which differs from orthodox Orthodox practice considered a Latinization?
Where the Ruthenians are concerned, where they differ from Orthodox practice (both old and new rites), YES.

Quote
Didn't any of our priests, bishops, deacons have a mind of their own, or did they just mimic either side? So much for the argument on patrimony! Obviously, we don't have one.
Ah yes, liturgically-aware clergy such as Elko. [/b]
[/b]
Yes, let's jump on our dead Bishops graves.
Yes, let's be so serious, that all the joy of faith is extracted.
Yes, let's talk about the stupidest, I mean "most stupid" things of any church, not to mention having a holier than though attitude. Icing on the cake.


Fr. Michael Sopoliga


Fr.Michael
#37313 05/06/04 12:40 AM
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"Better to light one candle than curse the darkness."

The Christopher's motto

#37314 05/06/04 01:05 AM
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I don't think thise matter should be considered trivial nor to be straining at gnats. The Holy Fathers of the first council set the dating of Pascha for a reason (and the gregorian dating does indeed violate canons). The Typikon also should not be ignored as it weaves together the great mystery of slavation. Remember that the Lord did warn we need to be competant in the small matters as well.

#37315 05/06/04 01:07 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by FrMichaelJS:
]Yes, let's jump on our dead Bishops graves.
Yes, let's be so serious, that all the joy of faith is extracted.
Yes, let's talk about the stupidest, I mean "most stupid" things of any church, not to mention having a holier than though attitude. Icing on the cake.


Fr. Michael Sopoliga
Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Fr. Michael,

Let's, please, jump on the graves of our dead bishops. The same who fought long and hard to protect and preserve the Faith, the same who laboriously compliled the various editions of the Typikon because it was so important to have UNITY.

The joy of loving Christ and experiencing the fullness of the faith in liturgical worship must indeed pale beside the joy you feel in scandalizing people with inane questions "Chili's...black and blue vestments?" That isn't joy in the faith, that is goofing off.

MOVING the feasts for audience convenience? it would strike me the greater issue is why are you worried that only 5 people will be in Church on Good Friday? I would devote more care to making sure people knew that on Good Friday they should be IN CHURCH (taking personal time from work and school unless essential employees)to focus on Christ, and the Cross.

"Holier than thou" seems to be your rallying cry for anyone with a more traditional viewpoint than your own, Father. I don't think you are considering how your words are striking people.

Gaudior, waiting for you to say "When YOU'VE been a parish priest for 25 years THEN you can criticize!" biggrin

#37316 05/06/04 01:29 AM
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Gaudior,

Moving feasts has been done for reasons other than trying to get the crowds to church. Even the Orthodox Church moves the feast of Saint George, if I am not mistaken. I know the current Roman Catholic practice is to move the annunciation if it falls on certain day - alas I do not have acces to my old RC liturgical books so I can't verufy the specifics of this. Although there is a movement in some RC circles of moving the Ascension to the following Sunday in order to have more people attend the feast. This type of moving I personally find to be atrocious, and I fear the fathers would very disapointed to see it.

#37317 05/06/04 01:48 AM
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Originally posted by Theodore:
Gaudior,

Moving feasts has been done for reasons other than trying to get the crowds to church. Even the Orthodox Church moves the feast of Saint George, if I am not mistaken. I know the current Roman Catholic practice is to move the annunciation if it falls on certain day - alas I do not have acces to my old RC liturgical books so I can't verufy the specifics of this. Although there is a movement in some RC circles of moving the Ascension to the following Sunday in order to have more people attend the feast. This type of moving I personally find to be atrocious, and I fear the fathers would very disapointed to see it.
Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Theodore,

Some moving of saint's days from the day of repose is AGREED ON AS LAID OUT IN THE TYPIKON, when such a day would fall on another more solemn day or feast. St. George is an example of a situation where the lamentable calendar issue crops up. The Feast is not moved on the Julian Calendar, but the Gregorian calendar and "Revised Julian Calendar" churches started shoving the Feast around because the hymnography is Ressurrectional, and under the Gregorian or Revised Julian calendars it CAN fall during the Great Fast or Holy Week, where it clashes with the mood....so...it gets shuffled...on the New Calendar...which is just wrong, as it eliminates fasts, Kyriopascha,(unless you are in Estonia or Finland) and results in such shuffling as this.

Again, though, the Typikon allows this wrong-headedness, and it isn't the decision of a SINGLE priest saying it is inconvenient.

Gaudior, saying, BRING BACK THE JULIAN CALENDAR...

#37318 05/06/04 02:25 AM
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Kyriopascha (the coming together of the Feasts of the Annunciation (March 25th) and Pascha (the Feast of the Resurrection) according to the Gregorian calendar occurred most recently in 1883, 1894, and 1951. It will occur again in 2035, 2046, and 2103. The coming together of these feasts occurs just as often on the Gregorian calendar as it does on the Julian calendar. Keep in mind that the Gregorian calendar is just the Julian calendar without the 13 days delay and with a fix to keep it from slipping.

#37319 05/06/04 02:35 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Gaudior:
Some moving of saint's days from the day of repose is AGREED ON AS LAID OUT IN THE TYPIKON, when such a day would fall on another more solemn day or feast. St. George is an example of a situation where the lamentable calendar issue crops up. The Feast is not moved on the Julian Calendar, but the Gregorian calendar and "Revised Julian Calendar" churches started shoving the Feast around because the hymnography is Ressurrectional, and under the Gregorian or Revised Julian calendars it CAN fall during the Great Fast or Holy Week, where it clashes with the mood....so...it gets shuffled...on the New Calendar...which is just wrong, as it eliminates fasts, Kyriopascha,(unless you are in Estonia or Finland) and results in such shuffling as this.
Gaudior,

Christ is risen!

The Russian Synodal Slavonic Typikon of 1896 allows for the Feast of the Great Martyr George to fall as early as Great Friday. Your statement "[t]he Feast is not moved on the Julian Calendar" is incorrect as is "the Gregorian calendar and 'Revised Julian Calendar' churches started shoving the Feast around because the hymnography is Ressurrectional." The Typikon regulates such matters.

Since the Greeks celebrate St. George as well, and on the same date, there is no way the same is not contemplated in the Greek Typika.

Tony, thinking Gaudior should check her sources more carefully.

#37320 05/06/04 02:38 AM
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Administrator,

Christ is risen!

This has been stated already on this thread and a thread that you closed recently. The recently closed thread included some severe allegations about the Gregorian calendar.

I sincerely do not understand the vitriol about the calendar.

Tony

#37321 05/06/04 02:43 AM
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Originally posted by Administrator:
Kyriopascha (the coming together of the Feasts of the Annunciation (March 25th) and Pascha (the Feast of the Resurrection) according to the Gregorian calendar occurred most recently in 1883, 1894, and 1951. It will occur again in 2035, 2046, and 2103. The coming together of these feasts occurs just as often on the Gregorian calendar as it does on the Julian calendar. Keep in mind that the Gregorian calendar is just the Julian calendar without the 13 days delay and with a fix to keep it from slipping.
Christ is Risen!
Truly he is Risen!

Indeed so, but can never occur on the Revised Julian calendar that all Orthodox Churches but Finland and Estonia are on...

Revised Julian is just a mistake...

Gaudior, still saying calendar needs reversion!

#37322 05/06/04 02:45 AM
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"Back in black"... eek No, I have a point to make about vestments, not an AC-DC album... wink

Black was introduced in the Russian Church at St. Petersburg for the funeral of Peter II in 1821. After that it became widespread for funerals (except Bright Week of course) and the most penitential days of the Great Fast.

While the use of black is certainly a borrowing from the Latins, it is one borrowing I think is appropriate, and has come to be commonplace even in some Orthodox parishes. It is a stark color, and certainly fits the "dark" general vestment category.

#37323 05/06/04 02:50 AM
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Originally posted by Gaudior:
Christ is Risen!
Truly he is Risen!

Indeed so, but can never occur on the Revised Julian calendar that all Orthodox Churches but Finland and Estonia are on...

Revised Julian is just a mistake...

Gaudior, still saying calendar needs reversion!
Gaudior,

You are most wrong when you cite "on the Revised Julian calendar that all Orthodox Churches but Finland and Estonia are on." Most of the Orthodox world is on the Julian calendar all the way. The Russian Orthodox Church (MP) is all old calendar. (The ROC/MP is the largest Orthodox Church in the world.) Let's not forget Athos and Sinai and Jerusalem and Serbia. What about most of Slovakia and all of Poland AFAIK. And how about the EP's jurisdictions here like the Ukrainians and ACROD?

No, most of the Orthodox world can still have Kyriopascha. Those of us on a mixed calendar cannot.

Tony

#37324 05/06/04 02:51 AM
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The Western Paschalion does not violate the Canons of the Ecumenical of Nicea. It did not direct Pascha to be celebrated after the Jewish Passover but, because the Jews changed their calculation for Passover, it directed them to ignore the Jewish computation for the date of Passover.

There is a very good article on the OCA website by By Archbishop PETER of New York and New Jersey titled Concerning the Date of Pascha and the 1st Ecumenical Council on the computation of Pascha. [oca.org] An excerpt: �The refusal to celebrate Pascha "with the Jews" (meta ton Ioudaioun) meant that, in the ancient canonical texts, we were not to celebrate this feast by basing its date on the method of calculation of the Jews. But, contrary to what was believed later, this refusal in no way was aimed at avoiding an accidental celebrating of Pascha and Passover together.

#37325 05/06/04 02:59 AM
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Originally posted by Tony:
Administrator,

Christ is risen!

This has been stated already on this thread and a thread that you closed recently. The recently closed thread included some severe allegations about the Gregorian calendar.

I sincerely do not understand the vitriol about the calendar.

Tony
Tony,

Indeed, He is risen!

I don�t understand it either. Neither calendar is holy. Both are secular calendars. One has a fix to keep it from slipping and really just returns it to where it was at the time of Julius Caesar. Nicea didn�t get into how to calculate the equinox. It just gave general guidance so that everyone would celebrate on the same day.

Admin

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