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#37530 12/05/01 06:07 PM
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Dustin -

I haven't been able to find it, unfortunately. I'd like to review it again myself, if someone can find it for me.

Brendan

#37531 12/06/01 05:52 AM
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Originally posted by Edwin:
How does the Eastern Code define a "rite?" Does it state that it is only liturgical (and harmless)? Doing liturgy differently is fine because it doesn't step on anyone's toes. How about "discipline?" Well, this brings into debate the issue of patriarchal roles and the question of 'mandatory' celibacy. If a rite is just a different ritual of doing the Mass, then the Code doesn't say what it means or means what it says. Read: lip service.

I have a difficult time with the idea that our liturgical tradition has no basis besides wanting to be different. Is "rite" nothing but icing and no cake? We see the icing but fail to appreciate the theology that is underneath? A rite goes beyond mere ritual.

To quote the CCC (Section 1202):

"1202 The diverse liturgical traditions have arisen by very reason of the Church's mission. Churches of the same geographical and cultural area came to celebrate the mystery of Christ through particular expressions characterized by the culture: in the tradition of the "deposit of faith," in liturgical symbolism, in the organization of fraternal communion, in the theological understanding of the mysteries, and in various forms of holiness. Through the liturgical life of a local church, Christ, the light and salvation of all peoples, is made manifest to the particular people and culture to which that Church is sent and in which she is rooted. The Church is catholic, capable of integrating into her unity, while purifying them, all the authentic riches of cultures."

This, of course, was echoing Lumen Gentium (23):

"By divine Providence it has come about that various churches, established in various places by the apostles and their successors, have in the course of time coalesced into several groups, organically united, which, preserving the unity of faith and the unique divine constitution of the universal Church, enjoy their own discipline, their own liturgical usage, and their own theological and spiritual heritage. Some of these churches, notably the ancient patriarchal churches, as parent-stocks of the Faith, so to speak, have begotten others as daughter churches, with which they are connected down to our own time by a close bond of charity in their sacramental life and in their mutual respect for their rights and duties. This variety of local churches with one common aspiration is splendid evidence of the catholicity of the undivided Church. In like manner the episcopal bodies of today are in a position to render a manifold and fruitful assistance, so that this collegiate feeling may be put into practical application."

The CCC is not an Eastern Catechism. It is a universal Catechism. Does that mean that we can use the CCC to understand the Eastern theological approach? In many ways, no. (Although as I mentioned before there are places where the CCC does present Eastern theological views.) Does that mean the CCC should be rejected by Eastern Catholics? Hardly, unless one believes everything Western is evil (and sadly there are a few Eastern Catholics like that...thankfully, only a few!)

Despite its Eastern deficiencies the CCC is a remarkable document that involved the work and editing of all the world's bishops. I would hope that Eastern Catholics would also rely on other sources as well (particularly those of their patrimony) but one is not led astray by using the CCC.

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And you better believe in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception because it is the only way to understand Mary's nature. Yes, it is not in your Typicon, but that is because Byzantines are deficient in their theology, no? No need for sophomore theologies or contradictory liturgical practices. It's in the CCC and that is good enough.

Surely the CCC can be misused as you state. But, that is not the fault of the CCC, is it? All sort of manner of documents are misused in like manner.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

#37532 12/06/01 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by Edwin:
Is our theology permissable if and only if it is accepted and/or tolerated by others?
Can Eastern theology stand on its own without being considered a mere chart of differentials?

Edwin,

The Eastern Catholic Churches are not only "allowed" but are actively encouraged to cultivate their own distinctive theological expressions.

This is authoritatively taught by the Second Vatican Council:

"All in the Church must preserve unity in essentials. But let all, according to the gifts they have received enjoy a proper freedom, in their various forms of spiritual life and discipline, in-their different liturgical rites, and even in their theological elaborations of revealed truth," (UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO, no. 4).

"What has just been said about the lawful variety that can exist in the Church must also be taken to apply to the differences in theological expression of doctrine. In the study of revelation East and West have followed different methods, and have developed differently their understanding and confession of God's truth. It is hardly surprising, then, if from time to time one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed it to better advantage. In such cases, these various theological expressions are to be considered often as mutually complementary rather than conflicting. Where the authentic theological traditions of the Eastern Church are concerned, we must recognize the admirable way in which they have their roots in Holy Scripture, and how they are nurtured and given expression in the life of the liturgy. They derive their strength too from the living tradition of the apostles and from the works of the Fathers and spiritual writers of the Eastern Churches. Thus they promote the right ordering of Christian life and, indeed, pave the way to a full vision of Christian truth," (ibid., no. 17).

God Bless,
Anthony

#37533 12/07/01 05:37 PM
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Dave & Anthony,

Thank you for your latest posts. This is good news for those who suffer from an assumed lesser Catholicism.

I remember a Byzantine Catholic priest handing me a copy of Dr. Ludwig Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" and told me that this was our faith. I guess he didn't hear about the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia. At least McBrien's "Catholicism" hasn't been used as a gauge!

My question: what do our priests actually learn in the seminary if they are thumping through Ott's book as an authoritative text on their faith? Just wondering.

#37534 12/07/01 07:15 PM
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Return to Orthodoxy :~)

For Brendan,

A question: Is there room in modern Orthodox theology for a Western approach to theology? Or, do you agree with our friend Robert who feels that this sort of discussion would be a "waste of time" and all that is needed is for us to "return to Orthodoxy"? <g>

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com[/QB][/QUOTE]

#37535 12/07/01 09:02 PM
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Edwin,

Thankfully neither the seminarians or deacon candidates are using Ott or any other Roman Catholic theologian as authorities on our Byzantine faith. We are reading St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom, St. Nicholas Cabasilas, St. Gregory the Theologian, and other Eastern Fathers as well as contemporary writers like Frs. Schmemann and Taft and Bishops Ware and Raya. That is not to say we never use some Roman Catholic authors, we do but thye are a small minority. Most notably we use Roman books in the area of moral theology as books by Eastern authors usable in an academic setting are few it seems.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
#37536 12/07/01 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by Rum Orthodox:
Return to Orthodoxy :~)
[/QB][/QUOTE]

Just wondering. Robert, what is your view of Catholic mysteries? Do they have grace? When Catholics receive the Eucharist in Catholic parishes are they receiving the Body and Blood of Christ? I'm not asking for an official view--just your view.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

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