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#375463 02/09/12 01:20 PM
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In the Roman Catholic Church there is something called "Mass Intentions". Do Eastern/Oriental Churhes also have "Mass Intentions" or do they have something different?

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At my Ruthenian parish, Divine Liturgies are often offered on behalf of those who have died, and for blessings for the living.

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Dittto for the Melkites. In some churches, a basket is placed before the iconostasis, into which people can place the names they wished commemorated at the Great Entrance.

StuartK #375484 02/09/12 08:11 PM
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In ACROD the Liturgy intention was carried over. It really is not substantively different than the recitation of the roll of the ill etc... found at the Great Entrance, but the liturgy is not 'privately' for the intention of the named persons.....This is one of those issues which can really be blown out of proportion by polemicists. I view it more as one of those things where east and west use different language or allegorical images to say essential the same thing. A problem since the tower of Babel.

DMD #375494 02/09/12 09:44 PM
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Quote
Originally Posted by DMD
In ACROD the Liturgy intention was carried over. It really is not substantively different than the recitation of the roll of the ill etc... found at the Great Entrance, but the liturgy is not 'privately' for the intention of the named persons.....This is one of those issues which can really be blown out of proportion by polemicists. I view it more as one of those things where east and west use different language or allegorical images to say essential the same thing. A problem since the tower of Babel.

One Eastern Catholic website actually have a service for people who would like to request Mass intentions. Sounds really strange if Eastern Catholic Churches, as you say, don't have the western/Latin concept of "Mass intention".
http://www.cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID=37&pagetypeID=1&sitecode=HQ&pageno=1

Originally Posted by DMD
A problem since the tower of Babel.
???

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Orthodox commemorations:

Commemoration

The primary prayer for the health of the living and for the repose of the deceased is done by the Church during the Divine liturgy. In view of this, before the beginning of the liturgy one must submit special commemorative lists with the names of the living and deceased (only the names of baptized Orthodox Christians can be submitted). During the proskomedia, the priest will take small particles out of the prosphora in commemoration of the living and the dead; these particles will be placed in the holy chalice and at the end of the liturgy will be steeped in the Blood of Christ as a symbol of Christ’s cleansing of human sins. It should be remembered that commemoration during the Divine liturgy is the greatest gift we can give to those who are dear to us.

At the top of the commemorative list is written “For the living” or “For the deceased,” under which we should clearly and legibly write the names we wish to submit, making sure to place clergymen and monastics first and not forgetting to indicate their priestly rank.

All names should be written out fully (for example, Michael, Alexander, and not Mike, Alex, etc.) When submitting the commemorative lists, parishioners usually accompany them with a donation to the church or monastery.

Many people append various pieces of information concerning the age, profession, or condition of their relatives: for example, infant, serviceman, imprisoned, suffering, etc. The church frowns upon this practice. The only thing the priest needs to know is the name which the Orthodox Christian had received at his baptism, and also the priestly or monastic rank, whenever such may apply. There is no need to indicate in these commemorative lists people’s last names, patronymics, social ranks and titles, or degree of kinship. There is also no need to precede names with such descriptions as “sorrowing,” “needy,” “straying,” etc. Only in the case of the newly-departed are their names preceded with the word “newly-reposed” while they are commemorated for the first 40 days after their death.

Besides general services, the Orthodox Church also has private services which include the moleben (prayers for the living) and the panikhida (prayers for the dead). In accordance with his own wish the parishioner may request a moleben to the Saviour (for example, a moleben of thanksgiving, or for travelers, or for the sick), to the Mother of God (or Her various icons), or to venerated saints.

The Lord mercifully allows us to receive His help in all our needs through the intercession of the Holy Theotokos and the saints. Thus, for example, prayers before the icon of the Mother of God “The Unquenchable Chalice,” or to the holy martyr Boniface, or to the righteous St. John of Kronstadt help deliver us from alcoholism; St. Nicholas the Wonderworker is the patron saint of travelers, aids in marrying off daughters and, in general, is quick to respond to various pleas for help; the holy warrior-saints Theodore Stratilates, John the warrior, Prince Alexander Nevsky, and also St. John the Baptist are the patrons of Orthodox soldiers; in illness we appeal to the heavenly physicians Great-martyr Panteleimon and the holy unmercenaries Kosmas and Damian; the names of many icons of the Mother of God (for example, “Joy of All Who Sorrow,” “Surety of Sinners,” “Softener of the Hard-hearted,” “The Merciful One,” “Seeker-out of the Lost,” “Assuage my Sorrows”) speak of the fact that She is our earnest Intercessor before God in our various needs.

The panikhida is served before the memorial table – a special table with the Crucifixion and candleholders, where the faithful can place candles in memory of their departed relatives. Monasteries and churches also accept commemorative lists for living and dead Orthodox Christians for a period of 40 days, half-a-year, or a year. In that case the monks or the priest pray for our relatives at every service during the indicated period of time.

While being aware that the best thing which we can do for our nearest and dearest (especially those who have departed) is to submit a list with their names to be commemorated during the liturgy, we must also unfailingly remember them in our own daily prayers and do charitable deeds in their memory.


Alice #375508 02/10/12 02:23 AM
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Sorry to say but I once had me a very negative and off-putting encounter with an Orthodox priest over the issue of having the panachida served for a non-Orthodox person. The priest flatly refused to do it, on the grounds that the deceased had not been subject to the Orthodox Church in life and was not after death and therefore, he could not be prayed for liturgically. Didn't make a lick of sense to me. I told the priest, "Seems like the only requirement to have a panachida served for a person is that he/she be dead" - which my friend most certainly was - it wasn't hearsay - I had seen him in the coffin.

What would it have hurt if the priest had just graciously gone ahead and done it? What harm would that have caused? It caused harm by REFUSING to do it...

I'm curious how, if this is the case, the Orthodox Church deals pastorally with converts whose deceased relatives/friends were of a different faith. It's like they say, "Come join our Church but don't ever get the notion we're gonna commemorate your deceased non-Orthodox loved ones in a liturgical way." I am aware the Orthodox encourage prayer for deceased non-Orthodox but privately, not liturgically. That ain't good enough for me.

This is one of the (many) reasons I have not, nor will I ever, join the Orthodox Church.

By the way, the Greek Catholic priest was accomodating and offered not only a panachida but the Divine Liturgy itself for that deceased person.

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Originally Posted by sielos ilgesys
Sorry to say but I once had me a very negative and off-putting encounter with an Orthodox priest over the issue of having the panachida served for a non-Orthodox person. The priest flatly refused to do it, on the grounds that the deceased had not been subject to the Orthodox Church in life and was not after death and therefore, he could not be prayed for liturgically. Didn't make a lick of sense to me. I told the priest, "Seems like the only requirement to have a panachida served for a person is that he/she be dead" - which my friend most certainly was - it wasn't hearsay - I had seen him in the coffin.

What would it have hurt if the priest had just graciously gone ahead and done it? What harm would that have caused? It caused harm by REFUSING to do it...

I'm curious how, if this is the case, the Orthodox Church deals pastorally with converts whose deceased relatives/friends were of a different faith. It's like they say, "Come join our Church but don't ever get the notion we're gonna commemorate your deceased non-Orthodox loved ones in a liturgical way." I am aware the Orthodox encourage prayer for deceased non-Orthodox but privately, not liturgically. That ain't good enough for me.

This is one of the (many) reasons I have not, nor will I ever, join the Orthodox Church.

By the way, the Greek Catholic priest was accomodating and offered not only a panachida but the Divine Liturgy itself for that deceased person.

I don't quite understand this. If neither you or your deceased friend are/were of the Orthodox faith, why was an Orthodox priest approached for a panihida?

Etnick #375524 02/10/12 01:16 PM
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Because I often attended that particular Orthodox parish with friends and relatives who are Orthodox. I still go there from time-to-time. I feel close to quite a few people there and their late Archbishop had been kind to and supportive of me. I asked for the panachida there because I felt as much at home there as one can feel while not formally belonging.

I'm glad to be able to add that particular priest and I are on very good terms now.

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In the Greek Orthodox church, we give names of those fallen asleep who are not Orthodox for memorial prayer. Infact, we have had actual memorial services (mnymosyna/panakhida) for the relatives of our parishioners that were not Orthodox. In the Greek church, intermarriages with other Christians (since most of our converts are because of this)seem to have brought a spirit of ecumenical oikonomia for such matters.

In the Russian church and in monasteries, it seems they are more strict about this.

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In both Orthodox and Greek Catholic Churches that have a Greek Catholic or Orthodox counterpart, this has long been the case.

StuartK #375529 02/10/12 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
In both Orthodox and Greek Catholic Churches that have a Greek Catholic or Orthodox counterpart, this has long been the case.

I am not following who or what exactly you are answering in this post.

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I have run into the same situation as Sielos Ilgesys. Five years ago a good friend passed away. I asked Father about having a Panihida said for him, but he explained that since my friend was Catholic, he couldn't do it. He did however add his name to the list of the deceased during the proskimidia.

Another friend of mine committed suicide last year. I again asked Father of any way he could be remembered during liturgy. He was also Catholic, and since he killed himself, there is definitely no way he could be remembered in the Orthodox church. Kind of a double whammy this time. I was a little offended, but I realize the Orthodox church rules for services when somebody commits suicide are very specific and strict.



Etnick #375542 02/10/12 07:12 PM
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As to suicide victims Orthodoxy is not so specific and uniform as some may argue or wish. A wise pastor will take the facts of the case and present them to his Bishop for guidance and direction. With a greater recognition that science and medicine now treat most cases of suicide as being medically or psychologically driven, even conservative - well not the REAALY conservation ones - Orthodoxy has inched to a more compassionate and embracing position on suicide.

As to Alice's questions. Within the Greek Catholic world, the Roman practice of 'offering Mass for the intention of this soul or that cause' became commonplace over the years. It carried over into Orthodoxy in America as many Greek Catholics became Orthodox. ( not the 'real' Russian Church, but the majority of east Slavs who became Orthodox here.) Since daily liturgies are not the norm in much of the Orthodox world, the concept of commemorating the deceased in that manner seems foreign. While many ACROD and even OCA parishes still have full time pastors with daily liturgy schedules(excepting for Lent) the concept of 'Offering Liturgy for Mom' etc.... is still 'in the heads' of the people. However, there is a slight twist in terminology. Rather than the mass/liturgy being 'offered' for the intention of someone, the Liturgy is offered for the Glory of God and His people. Within the liturgy, an intention to remember the deceased is included or alternatively a Trisagion or Panachida is attached at the conclusion.

Perhaps a seminary grad - east or west- could better explain this as the usual Rusyn or Ukrainian lay person will smile, nod and say 'Father I understand that, so when is the mass for my uncle gonna be served????' wink

The wise priests who are beloved and last in their parishes simply smile and say, with kindness in their voice, "Will next Thursday work for you, Mary?" The other type of priest will curl his lip with a look of disdain and proceed to give Mary a long winded lecture leaving her in tears and confused. He won't have that 'mass' next Thursday because he is likely packing his bags for the next of many stops along the way.

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Alice #375561 02/11/12 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Alice
The primary prayer for the health of the living and for the repose of the deceased is done by the Church during the Divine liturgy. In view of this, before the beginning of the liturgy one must submit special commemorative lists with the names of the living and deceased (only the names of baptized Orthodox Christians can be submitted). During the proskomedia, the priest will take small particles out of the prosphora in commemoration of the living and the dead; these particles will be placed in the holy chalice and at the end of the liturgy will be steeped in the Blood of Christ as a symbol of Christ’s cleansing of human sins. ...

Another description of this Proskomedia[/i] [en.wikipedia.org] Rite of Preparation.

Our parish follows the slavic tradition where individual prosphoron are set out on a tray in our bookstore beside the candles, and there are both personal commemorate booklets (the name of which I can never remember) for writing the names, and individual papers (4 1/2"X 5 1/2") one for "Intentions for the Departed", the other for "Intentions for the Living". People use either their own booklet or the papers. A prosphoron is placed on top of the booklet or the paper and the deacon or altar server takes them up while the priests are saying vesting prayers. After Liturgy we receive back our written intentions and the prosphoron which has had the section removed from it as you described, Alice, during the [i]Proskomedia.

Most of the names of the reposed and living are not then said aloud during Divine Liturgy but some may be.

In my ECC parish we have prayed for reposed Orthodox as well as Catholic persons. In the Litanies of course we are praying for virtually everyone, for example "the government and the armed forces.. the president of this country"... etc.

Originally Posted by Alice
At the top of the commemorative list is written “For the living” or “For the deceased,” under which we should clearly and legibly write the names we wish to submit, making sure to place clergymen and monastics first and not forgetting to indicate their priestly rank.

I have assumed this is because in the East we call our deacons and monks who are not priests "Father", whereas in the west Father equals "priest".


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