www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Is this an Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic forum?

I haven't actually participated in many threads here recently, but the two that I chose to participate in - and in which I defended a traditional viewpoint - were both closed rapidly, without anyone ever trying to supply support for the innovative practice from biblical or patristic texts. I suppose that people here want agreement with modern practices because it makes them feel better about the changes going on in many communities.

But I stand by what I said in my previous post, because I have no doubt that the type of threads I created in the past here at Byzcath would be closed quickly today.

Apotheoun,

I won't disagree that there are fewer Orthodox members who actively post than was the case some years back. As to why that is, I think it has to do in part with the fact that there are now more principally Orthodox venues than there were back then (OC, for instance, was just a couple years old and, IIRC, Monachos just a couple years older than that).


Here, I'll disagree. As the mod who probably most often makes the decision to lock a thread, I do so reluctantly and usually only when the tone and tenor have deteriorated to a point where the discourse is no longer akin to what is expected in civil and charitable conversation.

That doesn't have to mean that it has descended to the point of ad hominems; it shouldn't get that far. And, I assure you, that long years of moderating here and elsewhere have given me a good eye for when things are headed on a downhill trend that won't be pretty when they hit bottom. The other reason that threads are locked is when the argumentation becomes circuitous. Frankly, no one wants to read them when the same folk are posting the same arguments to one another repetitively or talking past one another, but don't know enough to walk away from two monologues being conducted in tandem.

And, here, polemics are right up there with incivility and/or lack of charity as inconsistent with the nature of the site - not always the case elsewhere.

I'd also note that the locking of threads in which civility and charity have begun to fall by the wayside - before things get worse, is a definite factor in why there are very few members here who are in any type of disciplined status (fully moderated, suspended, banned), as opposed to the case elsewhere. Yes, the locking of a thread can save one from oneself.

Many years,

Neil

What is apparently less welcome here is theological debate, even when it remains civil in tone. I have never said in any thread that I have either created or posted in that everyone must agree with me. It is no skin off my nose if someone opposes me in a debate, but now debates themselves seem to be unwelcome, because people start calling for the closure of a thread when an opinion is expressed that they do not like.

I have never asked for a thread to be closed and I never will.

Neil,

I agree that there are more Orthodox fora to post at, which I think overall is a good thing, but it is sad to see Byzcath become an Eastern Catholic ghetto in response to this new situation (and I say this as an Eastern Catholic). I have enjoyed the theological debates I have had here at Byzcath, and I have never taken the things said in those debates personally. But now it seems that some people cannot stand having positions they disagree with posted, and take it personally when a person does not simply toe the line and accept modernist practices and beliefs. I have seen this going on for some time here at Byzcath, and it was one of the reasons why I stopped posting here a while back. I remain hopeful that the present attitude will change, and perhaps when it does I will feel more comfortable about posting here, and even try to initiate (as I did in the past) some theological debates, but as I said in my previous posts, the kinds of debate I would create are no longer welcome here, and so I have no intention of wasting time and effort in a fruitless attempt to have discussions that simply end when one person complains because they feel personally offended by a theological teaching or doctrine.

God grant you many joyful years,
Todd

Would you like acknowledgment that there are neither biblical nor patristic sources to support what you term innovative praxis?

Although neither a biblical nor patristic scholar, I'll be pleased to give you that acknowledgment. How many times did you believe the question needed to be asked before the answering silence was an answer?

That, my brother, is an excellent example of circuity. It doesn't make your point right, nor does it make those on the other side wrong. It also doesn't make your point wrong, nor does it make their stance right.

It means that the standard you set is not met. It does not mean that the standard you set is the standard that must be met. It means that the argument has reached the point of agreeing to disagree, because both sides see themselves as right in the choices they have made as to what should/should not be done.

Many years,

Neil

That would at least be a response, and a better one than simply closing the debate and belittling those who stood up for tradition. By the way, I have no problem with reality, and I know that lots of things that are not traditional are happening in lots of places, but my question is: Should these things be happening?

Todd,

It stopped moving. There was no debate. It was like a car with tires spinning in a rut. It got to the point that repeated unanswered queries produced repeated answers - which were not answers to you. People were telling you why things are as they are - you could as easily have disengaged, content that the silence indicated no sources existed. Forcing the point to have someone say it back to you may be good for self-satisfaction, but it doesn't do anything for the one who has to say it. They know there are no sources, but that doesn't eliminate the reality that the need exists and is being met in the only way possible. You were girded for the long run. Which would have proved what? That you could outlast them?

I don't close threads because people insist on them being closed. In fact, I came very close to deleting all the posted requests to do so, lest it appear that was why I chose to do so. When I make that decision, I make it because I believe that the best interests of the forum are served by doing so. It's either because the people involved need to cool down or because this little microcosm of the world as a whole is bored to tears and allowing it to continue through 5 more pages will produce nothing - nada - of value. All has been said.

Many years,

Neil

The moderators have the power to do what what they want. I just wish that Byzcath were more like it was when I joined, i.e., an environment open to debating controversial issues. Thankfully, as you said, there are many new fora, and I can always post at those places.

P.S. - Threads tend to die their own death, and so they do not need to be closed very often. I see closure of a thread as a form of failed moderation.

I miss some of our Orthodox posters. It added a worthwhile diversity and many occasions for learning different traditions.

The perception that the forum has gravitated as more BC is because one discusses what is familiar to him and it fills the void. If more Orthodox or other eastern traditions post we will see a wider spectrum.

Fr Deacon Paul

This forum was recommended to my by a bi-ritual Catholic Priest.

I have found the tone to be very respectful and kind, especially to someone deeply rooted in a Reformation tradition. No one--either in PM or in forum--has ever called me heretic; no one has demanded that I convert.

There is a true caritas here, unlike some other fora that I browse.

Don't worry. I'll stand up for the missing brethren.

Todd,

Byzcath is the least moderated of any similar forum that I visit. Threads here are rarely closed, posts are rarely deleted, and people are rarely banned/moderated/what have you.

And as for towing modernist lines? Are you kidding me? This place has a whole subsection decrying the RDL. I don't think Byzcath has changed. I think you have.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I was cracking up when I saw that the headcovering thread was locked. The last post there was from 2001, then I found it and resurrected it with one little post, and two days later the debate got so heated that the thread was locked. :-)

To be truthful, when I first began thinking of joining an Orthodox forum, what I had in mind was a secular forum for Orthodox believers. I mean a forum where Orthodox believers would discuss their everyday affairs, such as dating questions or chit chat like they do in other forums, but with an Orthodox mindframe. For example, a person would ask a question relating to a dating problem, and people would answer, but it would be understood for everyone that there is no sex before marriage, no one in the thread would curse, etc. Of course, after looking around I realized that all forums with the word Orthodox in the title attract people who want to discuss theology which interests me as much as biochemistry research.

ByzCath, as someone noted above, is indeed one of the most tolerant and open-minded Orthodox forums, which is a breath of fresh air and the reason I keep coming back. Living in a box is a miserable life. I'm having an online discussion at another site with a Polish gentleman, and I shared with him my idea that the root of prejudice and hostility is ignorance. I used as an example the following fact: the Poles are angry at the Russians for betraying them during the Warsaw Uprising, and rightfully so. When I was at the Soviet Military Cemetery in Warsaw in 2009, there was not a single candle, the one I lit was standing there alone. But most Poles do not know that the Soviet Army had its own KGB agents in its troops. There were Soviet soldiers who jumped into the Vistula River to swim to the other side and help the Poles, and they were gunned down by the KGB agents. How do I know this? From reading an account of a lady whose grandfather was there and told her what he saw.

We should try to "take the shoes off our eyes" as they say in Russia, stop repeating like parrots what we heard from someone else, and look at things for ourselves. I know little about theology, but I know exceptionally devout people who are Catholic, Orthodox, and Eastern Catholic. Which leads my little mind to the conclusion that we should be friendly and tolerant towards one another as well as respectful of the things that others are sensitive about. Not everyone is familiar with the concept of sensitivity when it comes to religion, and sadly so. It is better to be charitably silent about certain things than cause strife.

Example - I myself am partially of the Jewish origin, and being that Russian Orthodox are typically fiercely anti-Semitic, I must regularly hear both in person and on Russian Orthodox forums disgusting things being said about Jews. I find myself struggling, because I do not want to stay silent and allow such things to be said in my presence, lest my relatives who were murdered in the holocaust will rise from the earth and spit me in the face. However, it is not always wise to speak up on such matters and cause people embarrassment or trigger their own (erroneous) beliefs. When in such situations, I always try to leave the forum...

OK, I had to come back for this one...

Brava Mariya....considering one member of my family surname from Poland is Reiss (with a great grandfathers name of Benjamin), need I say more....I have walked the path of those terrible transports during my trips and entered that acursed gate to a place God daily mourns looking upon in my most humble opinion, mans inhumanity to man, prejudice be it ethnic or religious unfortunately is part of the human condition, we are all guilty of it from time to time, however, depending upon its degree, have to, however, stand up to it no matter where it rears its ugly head (in sacred or secular society) and not let it defeat us at any time, even if you are an army of one, the truth is still the truth, we are all Gods children...aleichem shalom.

Brava again.