www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Carpathian Mountain Outreach 2012

The Carpathian Mountain Outreach 2012 [euroteamoutreach.org] is about to get started. Info packs and application forms are ready. According to their website,
Yes, they are looking for young men to spread the Word of God to those heretical Orthodox and Catholics. They hope to convert and save their souls.

Thank God the local Catholic Priest warned the village of these people:
Recap of Bukovets & Kozakiva [youtube.com]

Nothing like preaching the gospel using a Hollywood film.....ugghhhh.

The people in this region have been Christian and exsisted longer than both Protestantism and the United States have combined. They (carpo-rusyns) should send us missionaries not the other way around.

I, too, hope I'll finally be converted and that my soul will one day be saved. Betcha it ain't gonna happen through the follies of this version of Protestantism.

What a bunch of air-headed, arrogant and ignorant nit-wits. (I mean this with LUV, as you know). I bet their endeavor will go over like a ton of lead bricks.

They're going to "evangelise" people who have undergone martyrdom for Christ? Obviously they don't know Polish from polish...

Oh well: the targets of this "outreach" have survived the Ottoman Turks and Communism. Compared to that, this'll be nothing but a mild thunderstorm.

Who knows? One of the participants might meet a local girl, fall in love, marry her and turn into an iconodule with a hankerin' for prostopinije and incense. Podaj, Hospody!

Meet Pastor Kevin Hymer [fairparkbaptist.org] who is the pastor of Fairpark Baptist Church in Ft. Worth Texas. [fairparkbaptist.org] Pastor Kevin Hymer thinks the people of the Carpathian mountain area are Godless and he has been commissioned by God to send missionaries to spread the good news of Christ to the Catholic/Orthodox in the area. Pastor Kevin is sponsoring Joshua and Kelsie Steel [fairparkbaptist.org] Both Joshua and Kelsie speak the Ukrainian language and are actively involved in the lives of the Ukrainian people.

The way the missionaries Joshua and Kelsie Steel go about converting the Godless Ukrainians is through a free English class. You can see wonderful picture here [dropbox.com]. However, last year their printer broke his leg [youtube.com] so they are out of lesson one materials. After their lessons they spread the word of God to the people.

I am so glad that after 1,500 years the people of Ukraine will finally hear the word of God.

Finally the people living in the Carpathians will hear about Jesus Christ. Ridiculous!!!

No wonder there are tens of thousands of Russian, Ukrainian and other Slavs in the Seattle area who belong to a variety of Evangelical churches and so few Orthodox and even fewer Greek Catholics.

Please see this thread in the Prayer Forum.

Many years,

Neil

The sheer arrogance and willful ignorance of such who call themselves Christians never ceases to amaze me. A lot of good it has done the Catholic and Orthodox hierarchs and faithful to get in bed with these people on political issues in the United States. It is one thing to have shared views on moral issues, it is another to tag along with them and their methods given their utter contempt for us and our faith. Their failure to accomplish anything of meaning in that regard here over the past thirty years is telling notwithstanding their hold over part of the electorate in parts of the country. Just look at the abortion statistics and public opinion polling on gay marriage.

I've worked with all kinds of Christians--and those who call themselves Christians--for my entire career. One of the fundamental (no pun intended) tenents of the Anabaptist movement is that Catholics and Orthodox are Hell-bound heretics who must be converted. Their view of history is that the Church got off track shortly after the Apostles and that it was suddenly "refound" by their forefathers. A few years ago some of these people had a big missionary push to convert young Catholics at the World Youth Day when Pope John Paul II of thrice blessed memory came to the United States. Their hatred of us is something that just cannot seem to be bridged, no matter how much ecumenical activity goes on between us officially.

Another problem is that this movement--for lack of a better word--is not centrally orchestrated. Calling themselves Evangelicals, you can find all stripes from Westboro Baptist Church to independent churches to denominational groups.

A former employer was told by one of his pastors to fire me because he, as a Christian, should not be "unevenly yoked with an unbeliever" like me, a Catholic. When I wasn't, the man would enter the place where I worked by another door so as not to have to have direct contact with me.

I'm sure that this is why we Christians are no match for militant Islam. We cannot band together because there is still so much hatred beneath the surface from our bruising history.

Bob

One of the reasons why the Catholics must be evangelized in the Carpathian's is because, Statues Like This! [euroteamoutreach.org] You can spot these Godless heretics in their "Churches". A typical Greek Catholic church in Hrebeniv. [euroteamoutreach.org] Their evil Catholic priest will try and stop them. One the evil Catholic priest lives in a Church like this! [euroteamoutreach.org]

Nobody should ever confuse Anabaptists with Baptists. Anabaptists are the decendents of the radical reformation. They are the Menonites,Amish, and Bretheren. They are not fundamentalists in the usual sense of the word. The Baptists are mostly decenting Calvinist who developed on the American frontier. Most non-Baptist fundamentalists also are decended from Calvinist. These groups are the most virulently anti Catholic. Ignorance and ego are there stock in trade.

I wonder if we should start a mission in Ft. Worth Texas? We could start by handing out tracks at the Fair Park Baptist Church.

I believe "Catholic Answers" got started by a 'tract-on-the-windshield' war with some Baptists.

Aye, just as no one should confuse this Zwinglian ilk with true Calvinists.

These virulently anti-sacramental self-described "evangelicals" would consider Calvin "too Catholic".

I want to clarify my disdain is directed towards those who view 'us' as 'unchurched' or 'Godless' heathens - not the majority of God-fearing Protestants who likely view the antics of such folks with as much suspicion as do we Orthodox or Catholics.

Christ is in our midst!

No offense taken...believe me, many a Lutheran and Anglican has been regarded by such as these as being "unsaved" because we believe that salvation comes from God's decision for us 2000 years ago in Nazareth, Bethlehem, and a hill outside of Jerusalem rather than from our "decision" for God.

Our UGCC parish in The Colony, St. Sophia, was a Baptist church before being purchesed by the Eparchy of St. Nicholas and remodeled.

I completely agree.

Found this on the "Becker Bible Studies Library" website under "Anabaptist Belief"

www.guidedbiblestudies.com/library/anabaptistbelief.htm [guidedbiblestudies.com]

I've heard this before in conversations where people have tried their best to downplay--maybe even divorce--Mary from any place in Jesus' life and Church history. Seems to me that this borders on many of the heresies that were discussed and rejected during the first seven ecumenical councils.

Comments?

(emphasis mine)

Bob

You can watch some of the Anabaptist on reality TV. On National Geographic there are two programs that I watch: Amish: Out of Order [channel.nationalgeographic.com] and American Colony: Meet the Hutterites [channel.nationalgeographic.com] My impression from watching the TV series, are that the Amish and the Hutterites are both cults that are in existence because they more or less force their children to stay in the Church. If they leave the Church/Colony then they are ostracized and can't see their family or friends. In addition, they prevent their children from having an education beyond the ability to read and write.

The problem with both the Anabaptist and the Baptist is that they have a warped view of History. Some believe Constantine started the Catholic Church. Some even believe St. Patrick wasn't a Catholic. They take our beliefs and twist them. For example, our veneration of relics they would say we worship a big toe. They would go off and show some relic of a Saints toe and say see you even worship body parts. They are very combative. One time I tried to hold a conversation with a fundamental Baptist at Mardi Gras. He began to yell at me and told me I was going to burn in Hell because I was a Catholic. I believe he was handing out Jack Chick tracks.

These are some pretty successful cults since they have been hanging around for over 400 years. Since Anabaptists only baptize adults and since neither Amish nor Hutterites proselytize they aren't very effective as cults at coercing new members. Maybe you should check out your local Mormons or Jehovahs Witnesses if you are looking for cults.

All Anabaptists have a history of practicing banning of and association with sinners which is a fairly straight forward interpretation of several biblical passages. The Amish, because they were founded by a preacher, Joseph Amman, who believed the Mennonites were too lax in there practice of the ban are certainly more focused on that aspect of their religious lives than others might be.

The Amish and I believe the Hutterites as well, because they do not baptize until adulthood allow their children to make a conscious decision to stay or leave. Many do leave.

As for education, the children of the Amish where I come from attend school through 8th grade. I went to school with several Amish children. They also teach their own children in their own schools. Since they live in an essentially agrarian society, without most of the so called modern conveniences, they don't see the need for more schooling than that.

Your opinions seem to be built on a pretty deeply held ignorance. Rather than watching TV to find out what these people are about why don't you get a serious book and read about them, you might actually learn the truth.

By the way, I have lived among Anabaptists all of my life and I have never ever had one person engage me aggressively in any religious discussion or ever question my own beliefs. I certainly cannot say the same about the Baptists or other fundamentalists. I suspect you have never had a confrontation with an Anabaptist either. It is just not what they do.

JimG,

Thanks for the insight on the Anabaptist. I haven't met one before. All of my encounters have been with Baptists (Southern, Independent, Fundamentalists, etc...). Again, I did point out that it was my impressions based upon watching a TV show. As you pointed out this isn't enough information to pass judgement.

However, I do disagree with your assessment that just because an organization has been around a long time no longer qualifies them as a cult. Since Anabaptist aren't Catholic, twist both history and faith (most likely because of lack of education as mentioned before), restrict education, banish their children, etc... I would say that qualifies as a cult.

Okay, I've had Anabaptists and Baptists/fundamentalists confused. The similarity, however, seems to be in the statement I found and posted above. Both these groups of people seem to have the same ideas about separating the Mother of God from Jesus. And my question is how that seems to undermine the whole theology of who Jesus Christ is--what separates Catholics and Orthodox Christians from them.

Bob

I think someone earlier made an important point. All of these groups profess no creed and lack any form of hierarchy or resonsibility to any authority other than themselves. They all lack catholocity in the Eastern sense of having all of the valid elements of truth.

They have an amazing capacity creating their own versions of truth without the tempering force of either creed or tradtion let alone both.

Once in my home two Mennonite churches split because of a dispute over the appropriateness of the use of zippers.

The bottom line is that these fundamentalists will lure away their share of folks because the elixer the sell guarantees an easy route to heaven without either significant investment or effort.
The worst part is that it is so hard to expose the fraud because the evidence is not in this world.

In a related news article:
Latin American Church needs new effort to stop attrition to Evangelicals, Pope says [catholicculture.org]

The Holy Father said,

Is the Church of the East not fulfilling the needs of the people of the Carpathian Mountains?

Maybe in the interests of ecumenism, some of us Byzantine Christians in the DFW area ought to drop in on these folks this coming Sunday. After all, it is the feast of the Nativity of St. John the BAPTIST and we all know (!) that he founded the Baptist church.

Why, we might even end up "accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour" and thus "get saved".

On second thought: maybe not...

Maybe we could pray outside the Church on the Feast day. A prayer of exorcism? just kidding...

I find it disturbing that people don't take what the Holy Father is saying here seriously.

As a long-time student of the Plain Peoples and someone who has had a lot of opportunities to meet and interact with them, I have to agree with Jim's early comments above as regards them.

The differences between Baptist fundamentalists and the Anabaptist churches - be they Amish, Mennonite, or Hutterite - are very significant.

The latter, with some exceptions among Mennonites, do not actively evangelize and those Mennonite bodies which do so are far from aggressive in their efforts. You would be hard-pressed to find yourself in theological argumentation with any of these unless you were to initiate it and, even then, I think you would ordinarily find them walking away from it. They devote virtually no time to studying the faith of 'the English' and most would find it odd, at best, when any of their co-religionists do so.

While you'll find folks applying the derisive and derogatory term of 'cult' to these sects or denominations or whatever one chooses to term them, it is truly of ignorance that it's done. 'Cult' is an easy appellation to append to anyone who is religiously 'different' from us.

The Amish, the Hutterites, and at least those Mennonites who retain aspects of the 'Old Order' praxis are indeed 'different'. (One could also add to the list the Spiritual Christians - the Doukhobors and Molokans.) They are 'different' in their conscious choice to remove themselves or, at the very least, distance themselves from worldiness, in an effort to better remain focused on their spiritual beliefs. In this, they somewhat mirror the thinking that is observed among some of the Bezpopovotsy, particularly those who are of the isolationist persuasions ('it is not of us' or 'it is not for us', being phrases not uncommonly voiced by all such peoples in response to the query 'why don't you ...').

Their 'differentness' carries over into matters such as dress, transportation, liturgical language and praxis. And, yes, their history is full of schisms over such detail as zippers vs hooks and eyes vs buttons, colors of dress, styles and colors of buggies, and myriad other things - all too inconsequential to the rest of us to be of concern. These differences that bother them have extended even to automobile bumpers back when all such were chromed and some Old Order Mennonites who allowed the use of automobiles split - those of the Weaverland Conference becoming colloquially and collectively known as 'black bumper Mennonites', because they painted their bumpers black to match the only color vehicles they allowed.

(Keep in mind, that while we remain unconcerned by the choice of fasteners used on our clothing or by the color of our vehicular transport, we are readily scandalized by an iconographer rendering the Theotokos' garments in a 'non-canonical' color or by a presbyter's donning liturgical vesture of another ritual tradition.)

So, they're 'different', they're 'odd', and they would find our liturgical expression to be anathema to their expressions of worship. But, what they are not, by any stretch of the imagination, is a 'cult' as that term is typically used today. They are rather remarkable folk, the vast majority of whom would never think to consider that they were in any position to judge your soul's likelihood of salvation. Their theological beliefs are certainly different in very many respects from ours, but I defy anyone to think that God will turn away from a people whom, in the face of their children having been murdered, pray for the murderer and embrace his family, as happened after the Nickel Mines school massacre.

Many years,

Neil

Well said Neil. It just took a little while to get you to clarify and explain my humble efforts.

Jim

Some of the finest neighbors to my parish are "black bumper Mennonites"--honest, hard working, gently invitational with regard to their faith, but quite respective of ours.

I am currently reading, "Through Their Own Eyes - Liturgy as the Byzantines saw it" by Father Taft. In lecture one (chapter 1) of the book he is talking about how in Constantinople during the time of St. John Chrysostom the Arian heresy was all the people talked about. Fr Taft references historian Socrates Church History VI, 8 and states,
In the book Fr. Taft continues by saying,

Do you think Saint John Chrysostom is trying to tell us something regarding Carpathian Mountain Outreach 2012?

Quite possibly.

An Orthodox poster on another forum wrote some years ago:

CMO has a new video explaining their efforts: CMO Video [euroteamoutreach.org]

See how they evangelize the Godless Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics. Finally, they can hear the Gospel.

When watching the film make sure you stop at 7:30 seconds into it. You will see the "Missionaries" walk up to an BCC or Orthodox Church.

I feel sorry for these people.