www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why are EC & EO Liturgies different here?

This was touched upon in a thread a few months ago but we didn't come up with an answer.

In the Divine Liturgy as followed in most (all?) Orthodox jurisdictions there is a private prayer that appears to be missing from almost all Eastern Catholic texts. For example, from the Greek Archdiocese:

This can be read online at:

http://www.goarch.org/en/Chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchc.asp

Eastern Catholic texts of the Divine Liturgy seem to leave out the section above in bold where the priest prays:

"Wash away, Lord, by Your holy Blood, the sins of all those commemorated through the intercessions of the Theotokos and all Your saints. Amen."

For example, see the text used in the Melkite Church:

http://www.faswebdesign.com/ECPA/Worship/John.html
(I'm assuming that Russian Catholic and a few other parishes like St Elias in Toronto follow the Orthodox practice here and the priest does have this silent prayer in their liturgical texts.)

Both the Russian Orthodox and the Antiochian Orthodox texts for the Divine Liturgy contain this private prayer.

Why, then, this difference between EC and EO texts of the Liturgy?

1) Did this prayer and the action involved develop after the development of the Eastern Catholic Churches?

2) Was it suppressed? If so, why?

Any other ideas for questions as to why the difference?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

David,

I suspect you are seeing a later development in the Liturgy. For instance, if you look at the Orthodox site http://www.sspeterpaul.org/sjcli.html you'll find that this prayer is not only omitted, parts are moved after communion! In checking the most ancient versions of the Divine Liturgy that I can find this prayer is not present.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Fr Deacon Edward,

The site you referenced does contain the prayer:

As far as I know all Orthodox texts put this prayer after Communion. It's my understanding that the particles wiped from the diskos into the Chalice are considered unconsecrated--a reverse situation from the Presanctified Liturgy. (I'd welcome any other insights on that, however.)

I do not doubt there has been liturgical development. I'm wondering if this is actually a case after the various Byzantine Catholic jurisdictions came into existence or if this was supressed in the B C Churches afterwards. It does seem odd that all the various liturgical branches (Greek, Antiochian, Russian) contain this prayer and action but the B C texts do not.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Christ is Risen!

Dave, you always have a way of opening up a can of worms...

In the dialogue you are referring to, the deacon also says "Having beheld the Resurrection of Christ", "Shine, shine O New Jerusalem" and "O Christ, Great and most holy Pascha" immediately before the the "Wash away, O Lord".

All of this is to be said by the deacon if one is present. The deacon says the "Wash away, O Lord" while he is wiping the remaining commemorative particles which were set on the diskos into the chalice. This extra dialogue of the deacon is not in the Ruthenian rescension.

This addition is a post-Mohylian development as the liturgical books at the time of St. Peter Mohyla did not have the congregational response 'We have seen the true Light' but rather just Mnohaja Lita, even if only a priest was celebrating. It first appears in the Moscow sluzhebnik of 1655, and since it was already present in the Greek liturgikons of that time it is reasonable to deduct that this entire dialogue was introduced as part of the Nikonian usage reform.

So in this case, the Ruthenian books reflect a mixture of the pre- and post-Nikonian usage. The deacon Macarius in 1726 complained to the Russian Synod in Moscow that in Kyiv and Chernihiv they were still following the Mohylian usage and not singing "We have seen the true light" and subsequent dialogue, and he thus reported that these churches had not completely taken on the full Nikonian reforms.

Macarius had been sent as a liturgical "observer" to check on the progress of implementing the various Moscow Nikonian revisions. It seems the folks in Moscow thought the Kyivan church to be old-fashioned in holding to the Mohylian liturgical texts and not "with the times" for not having completely implemented the Nikonian reforms which were influenced by the current Greek practice.

Why the Ruthenian rescension accepted "We have seen" but not the accompanying dialogue by the deacon is unknown. In some of the older pre-17th century sluzhebniks, well before the Mohyilian editions, there was no congregational response at all to "Save Your people" which was taken as solemn blessing with the Holy Mysteries with a prostration.

Another variation, at least in the UGCC Liturgikon and in the Ordo Celebrationis, is at the distribution of the antidoron. The antidoron is called for after the Prayer at the Ambo with Psalm 33 before the blessing of the priest at "Blessing of the Lord be upon you". In the OCA Liturgikon the antidoron is called for after the final dismissal "May He who rose from the dead" etc.

Thanks, Diak, for the historical info.

Did the action of wiping the commemorative particles into the Chalice after Communion develop about this time? Or, had that been happening but without the prayer?

Also, does anyone know what the practice of the ACROD (Johnstown Diocese) is now?

And, what is the current practice of the Old Believers? Do they have this prayer after Communion? Does the priest wipe the commemorative particles into the Chalice after Communion? Fr Mark?

An additional thought:

How come the Melkite texts also omit this prayer and action? The Melkite Church dates from the early 18th century and followed the Greek usage (which as I understand the Nikonian reform was attempting to copy in most details). Why would the Melkite Church differ on this from the Antiochian Orthodox? Did this prayer and practice arise after the Schism in Antioch?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear Dave,

Well, in our "ultra-Orthodox" UC Churches that prayer is said together with the Resurrection prayers mentioned by our Reverend Diak.

In addition, just before the Epiclesis is pronounced, the troparia from the Lenten Third Hour are said with bows: "Lord Who sent Your Most Holy Spirit on Thy Apostles at the Third Hour etc."

Even the Ukrainian Orthodox have taken up the above initially Muscovite usage.

Alex

Dave, XB!

Can this explanation be too simple?

In the Orthodox parishes (both InComm and not), only the Lamb is sanctified. Then after the distribution of the Holy Gifts, then the unconsecrated particles left on the Diskos are "wiped" into the Potir with the accompanying prayer to which you refer.

In less Orthodox parishes, e.g. parishes where pre-cut cubes are used, all the bread on the diskos is put into Potir.

After the distribution of Communion, there is nothing to wipe into the Potir, so no need for a prayer of wiping.

Also, no particles of commemoration, so no one "commemorated through the intercessions of the Theotokos and all Your saints." And again, no need for a prayer.

Also, in some parishes, no proskomodia (but that's another thread...

XB

Herb

I think the prayer is missing from the Melkite Liturgy because we don't use a spoon for communion -- we use intinction.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Fr. Dcn. Ed: CHRIST IS RISEN!

Years ago when I briefly attended the Melkite Eparchy's old St. Gregory the Theologian Seminary in Newton Centre, MA, for its Diaconate Formation Program, both methods (depending on which priest was serving), intinction OR common Communion spoon, were used. Yes, the seminary chapel had its own Communion spoon! But *NEVER*, no *NEVER*, were pre-cut croutons used!

OrthodoxEast

Thanks for all the replies.

I got a private email from a priest from the ACROD (Johnstown Diocese) and he said that they do say the prayer in question ("Wash away, by Your holy blood...") but not the other prayers that one finds in Russian usage ("Having beheld...")

Now, I don't know if the Johnstown Diocese has always had this prayer and action. If so, that would mean that we Ruthenians lost it more recently. Perhaps they added it to match the Orthodox usage of Greeks and Russians. If so, I don't know for sure if that's a restoration or a liturgical development.

I did find this tonight in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04312d.htm

It is interesting that the article says the "Uniat" [sic] priests are "told to consecrate them too." Someone once suggested to me that they thought this prayer disappeared from Eastern Catholic liturgies when the use of the sponge was suppressed.

Does anyone know what the tradition of the Old Believers is regarding the commemorative particles on the diskos? Are they added to the Chalice after Communion?

Also, are these commemorative particles consecrated or not? The Johnstown priest I referred to said he had been taught they were. Any other views?

An interesting commentary on the view that these particles are not consecrated can be found at:

http://www.cin.org/archives/cineast/199706/0086.html

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear friends,

Whether the conmemoration particles or as I prefer to say the other breads in the diskos become or not body of Christ is a quite interesting question.

First of all we must take into account that the use of conmemoration particles and the blessing and distribution of antidoron (evlogia) are recent developments in Byzantine Liturgy whereas the use of several breads and chalices is the ancient tradition of the Eastern Church (ancient liturgies of James, Mark, Apostolic Constitutions, use of several lambs for the Presanctified Liturgy, lamb in the hands of the newly ordained priest). There is no doubt that all the breads offered by the celebrant were consecrated. So that the use of several breads or chalices (potiria) for the Eucharist can not be considered a latinization.

From my point of view the breads used in the prothesis rite (a quite recent development in Byzantine liturgy with a strong symbolical character) or conmemoration particles if you prefer are considered "breads" after the prothesis conmemoration rite (prothesis and proskomidi or offering prayer, epiklisis).

The antidoron is blessed (at least at the Greek use) only when, after the epiklisis, the priest stars the comemoration of the saints, the living and the dead by commemorating the most Holy Mother of God (the andidora become now conmemoration particles). If the breads in the diskos were not consacrated they could be given in fact as antidoron and would not be consumed by the deacon/priest with the Holy Blood (the andidoron is not consumed toguether with the Holy Gifts).

In most Greek Orthodox Churches all the breads (Panagia, conmemoration particles) are put in the chalice before the communion of the faithful (although some rituals "Liturgika" "ieratika" say that only the Lamb must be given to the faithful). Also in Greece the communion is given by indiction (of the small breads into the Holy Blood) when the Liturgy of James is celebrated. In Athens there is a parish which regularly gives the Holy Communion to the faithful in this way.

At the prayer "Apoplynon, Kyrie" or "Wash away,Lord" although is not found in the ancient text of the Divine Liturgy the breads in the diskos are not considered conmemoration particles. It is just the prayer the priest says when we cleans (apoplynon, was away) the diskos. All those commemorated are those whose names were pronounced during the Eucharistic prayer (nothing to do with prothesis rite).

The origin of this problem is that in the Byzantine Divine Liturgy we have two different parts (prothesis- Divine Liturgy) which do belong to two different historical periods. So that we have two conmemorations. In fact these two conmemorations can become three as in the modern Greek use (prothesis, conmemoration at the great entry by the priest and not only the bishop, Holy Anafora). Originally the protheis was just a small prayer (prayer of the prothesis) said by the bishop "when he put the breads in the diskos".

In the pontificial byzantine Liturgy we can find the ancient Byzantine use (the bishops put the lamb in the diskos, says the prothesis prayer and at the great entry (procession with the gifts) he conmemorates the living and the dead with the diskos and the chalice in his hands (conmemoration particles have no place in this rite ).

Yours in Christ

Herbigny,

I've wondered if this difference relates to the differing prosphora traditions between some Eastern Catholic jurisdictions and Orthodox tradition. But, without verifying the liturgical development of this passage I'm not sure if it is connected or not.

I did notice this comment in Fr Kucharek's The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St John Chrysostomregarding the number of loaves used in the Ruthenian Church:

I don't know if the practice of using one loaf for several Liturgies preceded this official permission or not. If not, could this perhaps explain why the prayer in question is in the Johnstown text as that separation dates from the 1930's? (That's assuming that it's been there all along and wasn't added to the Johnstown Liturgy.)

Another question: Does anyone know about the history of the supression of the use of the sponge in the Liturgy?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Old Rite - We use seven loaves.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dave,

The Synod of Zamosc suppressed the use of the sponge among other things, although I am not sure what the big deal about the sponge was. I believe the Melkites always used the sponge. The peculiar thing is the Synod of Zamosc was a synod of the then Ukrainian Metropolia (Archeparchy of Lviv, Eparchy of Peremysl, Eparchy of Stanislaviv)and did not have the force of law in Mukachevo, Krizevci, Presov, or Hadudorog although it seems these eparchies adopted the rulings of this Synod. The Ordo Celebrationis clearly states that the prescriptions of this Synod were not to be used outside of the Ukrainian Metroploia and even there they were to be phased out. They are obviously no longer applicable.

In Christ,
Lance

Fr Mark,

Thanks for the info. Some further questions: When in the Old Rite are the commemorative particles put into the Chalice? Is that before Communion or after? Does the Old Rite have the prayer in question: "Wash away, Lord, by Your holy Blood, the sins of all those commemorated through the intercessions of the Theotokos and all Your saints. Amen"?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com