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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Do Ukrainian Bishops complain to the Patriarch and his Holy Synod's Occidental Office about the presence of celibate diocesan clergy - does the Ukrainian Church's Occidental Congregation then forward the situation to the Latin Curia to correct the potential scandal it could cause the Ukrainian faithful in their homeland?

About the fact that they're celibate, or about the policy that make celibacy mandatory for Latin priests in Ukraine?

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Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Originally Posted by theophan
I think you miss Sbdn John's point. Why, if Eastern Catholics must be under a Latin bishop in the United States thought they can worship in theri own tradition, are not Latin Catholics under an Eastern bishop within the canonical territory of an Eastern Catholic Church?

Pardon my bewilderment at this concern. Are Eastern Catholics in the United States subject to Latin Church bishops?


Not too much nowadays, but historically that happened quite a lot.

I only know of one case where the reverse has happened. Eritrea, iirc (if that's wrong, then my second guess would be Ethiopia). If anyone knows of any other cases (current or historical) then please enlighten me.

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We must keep in mind that, in that part of the world, borders have been constantly changing. The city of Lviv, now in Western Ukraine, has also been part of Poland, as well as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and the Russian Empire. It has had at least four names that I know of: Lviv, Lwów. Lvov, and Lemberg. Being of German ancestry, I kind of like Lemberg grin.
A few years ago, there was a show on Broadway entitled "Karpaty". The main character was a Jewish man who had a line to recite as follows: "I was born and circumcised in Austria, bar mitzvahed in Czechoslovakia, and married in Ukraine, but I never left my village".

Dn. RJB

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Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Do Ukrainian Bishops complain to the Patriarch and his Holy Synod's Occidental Office about the presence of celibate diocesan clergy - does the Ukrainian Church's Occidental Congregation then forward the situation to the Latin Curia to correct the potential scandal it could cause the Ukrainian faithful in their homeland?

About the fact that they're celibate, or about the policy that make celibacy mandatory for Latin priests in Ukraine?

I think he was making a sarcastic reference to the requirement that Eastern Catholic priests operating outside their "traditional homelands" be celibate ostensibly to prevent "scandal" to the Roman faithful. It would be funny if the Ukrainian bishops (or bishops of another Eastern Catholic Church) began complaining about celibate Roman clergy in their midst to point out the utter ridiculousness of that requirement and the real scandal it causes to Eastern Christians, both in union with Rome and not.

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Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Do Ukrainian Bishops complain to the Patriarch and his Holy Synod's Occidental Office about the presence of celibate diocesan clergy - does the Ukrainian Church's Occidental Congregation then forward the situation to the Latin Curia to correct the potential scandal it could cause the Ukrainian faithful in their homeland?

About the fact that they're celibate, or about the policy that make celibacy mandatory for Latin priests in Ukraine?

Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox Tradition doesn't allow for celibate non-monastic clergy as diocesan priests in regular circumstances. Either they should be married with a presbytera or be anchored to a community of brothers. Never celibate and alone.

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Do Ukrainian Bishops complain to the Patriarch and his Holy Synod's Occidental Office about the presence of celibate diocesan clergy - does the Ukrainian Church's Occidental Congregation then forward the situation to the Latin Curia to correct the potential scandal it could cause the Ukrainian faithful in their homeland?

About the fact that they're celibate, or about the policy that make celibacy mandatory for Latin priests in Ukraine?

Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox Tradition doesn't allow for celibate non-monastic clergy as diocesan priests in regular circumstances. Either they should be married with a presbytera or be anchored to a community of brothers. Never celibate and alone.


Touche.

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Originally Posted by JBenedict
Someone will be along with better info, but it looks like the Archdiocese of Lviv [catholic-hierarchy.org] was erected (1412) before the Union of Brest (1595).
And the Vatican erected its titular see of Kiev in 1321, the absence of Latins notwithstanding.

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Originally Posted by Paul B
I, like Roman Interloper, don't understand, either. Do you consider it an injustice that ethnic, and always Western since conversion to Christianity, RC's SHOULDN"T have their own Bishops?

Their dioceses have existed since before the Union. Some may have at one time been Eastern, but I believe this is not nearly the norm. Without doing any research, as I recall, the Polish and Lithuanian kingdoms were powerful during the late Middle Ages.

Surely, vindictiveness isn't in order here.

More info, please.


S'nami Boh!
Despite the powerfulness of Poland and Lithuania, Lviv refused to join the "union" imposed for over a century. And even after nearly four score years thereafter, enough Orthodox remained to petition the Austrian Emperor for a Church in Lviv.

The Latin diocese of Lviv was erected to replace, not to suppliment, the Rus' one that had been there since the beginning. The Vatican had issued a papal bull in 1372 to its archbishop of Krakow to appoint Latin bishops and remove the Rus' bishops, in the area conquered by Poland in 1349.

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Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Do Ukrainian Bishops complain to the Patriarch and his Holy Synod's Occidental Office about the presence of celibate diocesan clergy - does the Ukrainian Church's Occidental Congregation then forward the situation to the Latin Curia to correct the potential scandal it could cause the Ukrainian faithful in their homeland?

About the fact that they're celibate, or about the policy that make celibacy mandatory for Latin priests in Ukraine?
About the fact that the mandatory celibacy might "scandalize" the local faithful.

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Originally Posted by Deacon Robert Behrens
We must keep in mind that, in that part of the world, borders have been constantly changing. The city of Lviv, now in Western Ukraine, has also been part of Poland, as well as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and the Russian Empire. It has had at least four names that I know of: Lviv, Lwów. Lvov, and Lemberg. Being of German ancestry, I kind of like Lemberg grin.
A few years ago, there was a show on Broadway entitled "Karpaty". The main character was a Jewish man who had a line to recite as follows: "I was born and circumcised in Austria, bar mitzvahed in Czechoslovakia, and married in Ukraine, but I never left my village".

Dn. RJB

Wow, that's an interesting note there. I too, am of half-German and Slavic ancestry (my father's side being Canadian-French, but my mother's side of the family is the one I follow). I think the name Lemberg sounds pretty good. In fact, over at our Ukrainian Eparchy here near where I live, the second-in-command to Bishop Moskal (Aux. Bishop John Bura, I think) was from Germany, so I'm sure I could easily relate to him. I'm curious as far as how Eastern Christianity is in Germany, as far as support for either Eastern Catholic, and/or Orthodox faiths. It wouldn't surprise me that there'd be at least some villages in the Bavarian Alps somewhere of either Ukrainian or Ruthenian heritage.

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I think you will find the most of the refugees who arrived during WWII (from what had been eastern Poland until 1939 and was annexed to the USSR that same year)were moved on to Canada, USA and to Australia. Very few stayed on in Germany or Austria. However, some new people have recently arrived from Ukraine and Bosnia but in nothing like the numbers who were in German when the war ended.

cool

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Originally Posted by Sbdn. John
Hi. I am not trying to cause flame wars, but I was wondering why there are Roman Catholics in Ukraine? I actually know why, but I thought all the people there were eastern Christian...
I'm sorry to join this discussion, because I understand not too much in this theme, but this question concerns my family. My cousin (we are from Russia) married an Ukranian man, left Russia and after several years of her life in Ukraine she turned to Catholicism, though she had been Orthodox and her husband too. It would be no problem, this is her own choice, but the problem is that her son, my nephew is my godson. His first Communion was in the Orthodox Church (I asked my cousin to let me lead him to my Church). She said Ok, do what you want as a godmother. But what will be then? I'm wondering too: "why there are roman Catholics in Ukraine"?
Now I understand why I' m here on this forum!!! God led me here to help me to get acquaintance with Catholicism, furthermore my ancestry lived in Poland and were Catholics smile

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Originally Posted by Nataly
Now I understand why I' m here on this forum!!! God led me here to help me to get acquaintance with Catholicism, furthermore my ancestry lived in Poland and were Catholics smile

Nataly, my sister,

This is a bit off topic but, regardless of how you came to be here and why God led you here, all of our members - Catholic, Orthodox, and others - have been blessed by your presence and the wonderful contributions that you've made during your time here - most especially in the Iconography forum. Thank you for being with us.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally Posted by Pavel Ivanovich
I think you will find the most of the refugees who arrived during WWII (from what had been eastern Poland until 1939 and was annexed to the USSR that same year)were moved on to Canada, USA and to Australia. Very few stayed on in Germany or Austria. However, some new people have recently arrived from Ukraine and Bosnia but in nothing like the numbers who were in German when the war ended.

cool

Ah, I see. Although back in the history of Imperial Germany, I remember it being a far bigger country than it was after WWII. If I'm not mistaken, there were parts of Germany that extended into the Carpathians, whether that's true or not, can't really remember. However, this is going off topic.

Considering that there are also Rusyns that live in Ukraine, I'm sure there are just as many of those that attend or have attended either UGCC or Latin Rite Churches there as well. However, it's also curious to find out how many Ukrainians have worships in a Ruthenian Church if they ran into one. Now with Ukraine being split into West Ukraine being UGCC and Central and East Ukraine being Orthodox, for the most part, this thread could go on forever. However, I'm sure you do have that Polish influence on Ukraine as well, so no doubt you will still have that around, and Latin Churches could still exist throughout the northwest area of Ukraine as a result. Not entirely sure now.


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Thank you, Neil. I'm happy to share the knowledge and news from the best Orhodox media in Russia. I' m happy also to show the whole variety of Orthodox iconographic images. And I'm really happy to be in this forum smile

Last edited by Nataly; 09/29/12 10:49 PM.
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