www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall same-sex marriage on Catholic schools

I think this is the person [en.wikipedia.org] that we need to send our big message to, and hope that he will back off, so we can restore the freedoms that we need to survive on.

With all due respect, StuartK, you argue rather dishonestly. If I stated that most of the founding fathers of the United States were Protestants and agnostics, that is hardly the same thing as putting Protestants on par with agnostics. I think it should be fairly clear to see that the point I was making is that some of our Catholic leaders today, when publicly lamenting the HHS mandate and same-sex marriage and various other hot-button issues of the day, tend to speak as if America was a devout and God-loving nation of Biblical precepts from her foundation right up until the day before yesterday, and that now suddenly, in a way nobody could ever have predicted, we have all at once (with Obama) become secular, libertine, and socially progressive.

Now, if you want to say, "We have been, RI, that's exactly the situation; the American populace only embraced worldly secularism just yesterday. Before now we've been Holy Mother America", fine. But don't unjustly twist my words around, particularly after posting a remark that essentially agrees with my observation, just for the sake of...actually I have no idea what. Being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative? Being disrespectful for the sake of being disprespectful? For goodness' sake.

As to the Douay Rheims Bible comment and the Bible-as-fairy tale remark, please don't behave as if both comments were not disappointingly puerile. You both would do better to simply apologize.

Explains how the former lost the continent and we should emulate the latter in keeping it.
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.

They were, however, approved by colonies turned states, most of which had state churches and all but one had explicit Christian aims in the founding, to judge from their charters: the founder of the exception, Roger William, was no agnostic, nor was Rhode Island really an exception: it let the colonist decide on their Christianity, but Christianity itself was not in question.

The First Amendment didn't change that: in fact, the First Amendment barred the Federal government from disestablishing the state churches of the states.

George Washington kissed it, i.e. venerated it, when beginning what is being promoted as the secular system of things.

Roman,

Here are your own words:
Note that the parallel you draw between agnostics and Protestants is with no qualification of any kind. Like it or not, that really is "the same thing as putting Protestants on par with agnostics."

First of all, this kind of rhetoric is typical when discussing social issues from a political standpoint. Be that as it may, however, the fact is that millions of Americans only changed their positions on some of these points when the Democratic Party--under Obama's leadership--embraced them. (Let us not forget that it was during the Clinton Administration that DOMA was passed, and that Clinton himself signed it. )

Now, I will certainly agree with the proposition that social values become political issues only after a gap has appeared between a large number of people's social values and the existing laws. However, it is also true that many more people will come to embrace the new position once it becomes "politically correct."

Roman,

Paul B was referring to a well-known historical fact about the colonial and early Republic period of American history, which StuartK later stated more explicitly:
Now, you might take exception to his somewhat sarcastic remark, "But it's not a Catholic Bible, so I guess it doesn't count," but your posts really did seem to imply that none of that counted for anything.

(FWIW, it has been the faith of this country that made it great and kept it strong for many years, and that faith has been found on both sides of the Catholic/Protestant fence. If you want to debate this, let's take it up on a new thread.)


Peace,
Deacon Richard