www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology "Because he does not follow us" in the Book of Mark

"You're asking the wrong question, going by the documents of the Roman Catholic Church such as Domnius Jesus, as well as documents of the Orthodox Church, including the canons of the Council of Arles and Carthage on the validity of Baptism by Donatists. As we have seen, the Roman Catholic Church recognises that the one Holy Catholic, Apostolic Church subsists in the Orthodox Churches as well as in the Roman Church. It's not a matter of it subsisting in the Roman Catholic Church (and Eastern Catholic Churches) OR the Orthodox Church. It subsists in both, according to the documents of your own church. Your premise is wrong, based on the teaching of your own church."

Wrong!


"Therefore, there exists a **single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church**, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches."

"Dominus Iesus"

Christ is in our midst!!

I think it is safe to say that we will never solve the mystery of where the Church lies in the present state of affairs, given so much negative history that each of us has absorbed from our respective communities. Rather than trying to see the Truth through the eyes of each other, we often move toward beating each other up with documents and polemics.

This board was established to be a place where we could all meet as brethren, come to know and understand each other, and to take that understanding back to the places where we live in the virtual world.

This thread seems to be moving toward the type of arguments and polemics that have poisoned relationships among the Churches and ecclesial communities--and the members thereof--over the past millenium and a half. If we cannot step back and understand that we will not solve this mystery on an internet board and cannot maintain the mutual charity that is the basis for this board, I will close this thread.

Bob
Moderator

I certainly wasn't looking to initiate a heated polemical argument, and I apologize if it appeared otherwise. I was just curious as to how we, as Catholic Christians (of the Eastern and Western Churches) can both balance the need for spiritual outreach to our "separated brethren" in the Protestant and other denominations while also contemplating that passage from Mark.

Which Church has a more coherent praxis - lived Christlike faith? I would say it varies according to season, location, individual bishops, and the laity.

It seems like the Orthodox Churches in the US are more confederation, cyclically in some state of turmoil or ethnic something, often contradicting each other outright - even within one jurisdiction (see OCA, Indian or Ethiopian Churches). Some of the details are far too internal for any outsider to comprehend, let want to learn the back story to try to untangle.

The Catholic Church in the US, while having a visible presence, vocal media, and coherent face is divided internally - between bishops not willing to speak the Faith publicly out of fear of being disinvited to the next political dinner or of losing more funds from wealthy liberal Catholic-in-name-only donors and their 60s era left-wing professor priest friends (aka McBrien, Call-toAction, and friends).

The worst leaders among both Catholic and Orthodox are the one's I like to refer to as 'Chuckles' - they laugh and smile at every photo op, when they see they priest-buddies, with parishioners, etc., but never do any real episcopal leadership. No oversight, no responding to concerns or letters, no corrections to Liturgical abuses or physical/sexual among those they SHOULD BE overseeing - or even more loathsome - participating in these themselves!

IN the era of Stalinist priests and bishops in South America, would it have been better to break with the visible church united to Rome and join SSPX or Antiochian Vicariate - perhaps for you at that time. In the era of Facist supporting Greek Orthodox priests and bishops, would it be better to join the Eastern or Latin Catholics - I'd say so.

Whichever Apostolic Church lives the virtues faithfully in your area, please thrive there. Be of benefit to yourself, your family and your neighbors.

As to the Pope - should be have some role in the visible face of the Church worldwide? That he does is unarguable.
Is his authority unlimited? Even the most authoritarian ultramontane would say no.

All the rest is legalese. It varies according to local custom, the laity, each era and season.