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I went somewhere different for the Divine Liturgy today and I have a question.

What's with the recited liturgy?

The Liturgy was in English but it was recited, not sung, nor chanted.

The Choir sang the Trisagion and the Our Father. The priest chanted the Gospel.

Any ideas or thoughts? Does this type of Divine Liturgy appeal to anyone?

I found it lacking, IMHO.


David

I had a similar experience at a local Ukrainian church a few weeks ago.

Ouch!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear David,

You don't mention the jurisdiction of the parish you attended, and I wish you would.

Among Ukrainian Catholics, it is (unfortunately) not uncommon (though I hope that it is not extremely common, either) to attend a Divine Liturgy where the congregation and priest actually recite (not even recto-tono, but in a speaking voice) the texts of the DL. It was my most unfortunate experience to attend an English-language version of the Divine Liturgy in the cathedral of the Ukrainian Catholic eparchy of St. Nicholas in Chicago in 2000, and I hope never to live through another.

I have never experienced such a thing in any churches of the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia, though it has been made very clear to me that any one person's experience cannot represent the whole picture.

Whatever the actuality, it is certainly against not only the tradition of the Ruthenian Churches (using this term in its broadest meaning) but also against the current Ordo Celebrationis.

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

I mean no disrespect, so please try to understand the spirit in which my comment is given.

If that recited liturgy is what comes to mind when Ukrainians think of English liturgy I'm not surprised that they fear it. I would too!

It adds a whole new dynamic to the discussions we have been so fond of on this board.

Begging the forgiveness of all my Ukie friends here
Michael, the archsinner from Chicagoland

Alas, this is what might become of the Byzantine Ruthenian church if some individuals have their way regarding music and cantors.
I attended a church where at communion the choir went down to receive and one or two of the choir started singing communion hymns but having a tough time of it. As a choir they sounded great, but in their tradition plainchant was unfamiliar and no one was familiar with cantoring (pardon me, chanting).

Steve Petach

Apparently it does.

A few years ago I had the opportunity to attend a Liturgy at one of those churches where this is the only kind of Liturgy they know anymore.

The entire Liturgy was recited, in English, *except* the Cherubic Hymn (which was sung congregationally, in Slavonic) and a few communion hymns (again, in Slavonic & Ukrainian). As I was in the choir loft, it was clear that one elderly gentleman was a "cantor" (for better or worse) and had no problem leading the singing when the singing actually happened.

Afterwards I asked a parishioner if they had completely-sung liturgies since apparently there was a cantor. Her response: "Oh no, we like it this way. It's so much more spiritual, us all reciting the same thing all together."

I kid you not!

Recited liturgies should be banned. Even I, deaf as a post, can manage at least some singing and certainly recto-tono, so there is no excuse for anyone else!

Christ is Risen!

The parish I usually attend is the result of a combination of two others. After all the difficulties one might expect in such an arrangement the results have turned out pretty good.

One parish apparently had congregational singing and the other had a choir. Every other week, except for the summer, the choir will sing. You would not believe the effect this arrangement has had on that congregation. They have a beautiful and strong congregational "voice" led by the cantors. It's almost too much for words. Everybody seems to sing out the chant.

Then when the choir is gathered for liturgy it's like a whole other congregation. IMO they are very good and they take the liturgy to another level.

I suppose a recited liturgy can be done well if the attempt is made, but I cannot understand why they want to when they can chant it or sing it.

In Christ Our Lord,
Michael

These do exist in all Eparchies of the Ruthenian Metropolia as well as in the UGCC. I have never seen this in a Melkite church, however for daily liturgies I would not be suprised if any Greek Catholic parish, Melkites included, resorted to recited liturgies because the turnout is often very small. Another reason to only have Divine Liturgies on feast days and Sundays.

I can remember recited Liturgies for Daily Liturgy at St Stephen B C (Ruthenian) in Phoenix back about ten years ago. They stopped that practice of recited Liturgies soon after. They sing the Liturgy for Daily Liturgies (though I don't believe they use incense for these), but then it's been awhile since I've been to one there.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

I have chanted (cantored) and attended daily liturgies where there are only 3 or 4 in the church and the liturgy is sung, not recited.

This is all the more reason to get more people involved in chanting (cantoring, leading the congregation in chant) the liturgy.

The plainchant tradition is meant for the people to participate. If I am chanting solo while everyone else just watches, then there isn't true participation. I ask everyone to sing, even if they don't think they have a singing voice. ( yes, sometimes it is hard to lead when tone-deaf people are singing in close proximity to me. However I will never tell them to be quiet.)

I came across this from a church bulletin from many years back:

The Ten Commandments of Congregational Singing

I. Thou shalt sing!

II Thou shalt sing with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy might!

III Thou shalt sing fearlessly, ingnoring the possible wonderings glances of your neighbors. They would like to sing with you if they had the nerve, and they will sing with you, if you continue.

IV Thou shalt sing joyfully, as it is written by the Prophet Isaiah:"Sing, O heaven, be joyful, O earth, and break forth into singing , O mountains!"

V Thou shalt sing reverently, for music is prayer.

VI Thou shalt not be afraid to sing, for although an individual may sing in prose or even in wordless silence, a congregation must sing!

VII Thou shalt not resist new melodies, for it is written in the book of Psalms:"O sing unto the Lord a new song!

VII Thou shalt not mumble the melody, but thou shat sing it out loud, even if with occaisional mistakes!

IX Thou shalt not hesitate to sing together with the trained cantors. They want you to join with them!

X Thou shalt not forget the words of the Psalmist: "I will sing unto the Lord, as long as I live"


THe bulletin article does not list credit for who wrote this, but I find it to be true.

Steve Petach

Amen!

AMEN!

AMEN! AMEN!

Wow...

Holy Smoke, Dave, you sure are dating yourself! I personally have never attended a daily Liturgy at the pro-Cathedral that did not have the "holy smoke", and this even prior to my diaconal ordination. It sure would be a awkward for the deacon who serves the daily Liturgy.

(Fr Deacon) John

Fr Deacon John wrote:

Thanks for the update! I'm mixing memories of when Fr Al and Fr John served St Stephen. Some of my favorite memories of St Stephen are during the period soon after Fr Robert's ordination when he'd serve Liturgy with Fr John.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear Steve,

Thanks for the "10 commandments" of singing. I like them very much. ....with your permission, I will borrow them for a bulletin?

Elias