www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Holy Cross Monastery - a story of survival

If anyone thinks they've heard it all: ROCOR -- ROCOR!-- monks chanting the classic Salve Regina (in English) to the traditional Gregorian chant melody. A truly ecumenical moment, and well done (although it's Salve, Hail, not Save us.)

The Latin version here [youtube.com].

I've regretted -- it not being proper, a Latinization I thought -- to sing before the liturgy one of my favorite Lenten hymns, Attende Domine [youtube.com]. But here is a precedent. (And I did have to check that it isn't April 1).

Who remembers when the monastery was in House Springs?

Interesting that when you hear Znamenny Chant, you think Gregorian, and when I hear Gregorian Chant, I think Znamenny! What is missing from the monastic choir at Holy Cross is the low accordance, (soglassya)(the eson reminiscent part).

I'd never confuse Gregorian with Znamenny chant. If you're telling me that the initial chant (it's continued later in the video) isn't solely from the Gregorian repertoire then I'd like to know it's source. It is a very well know Gregorian chant being a very well and widely known Latin prayer from the Divine Office, actually, one of the (seasonal) Antiphons of the Mother of God.

The source that Holy Cross took their translations from is the Knigoizdatelstvo Znamenny Peniye published in Kiev, in I believe 1910 or 1911. It is possible that the melody was "borrowed" by Hansiatic or Polish traders and introduced into the West, but I recall hearing it in Slavonic.

Znamenny, for the most part leaves me "antsy". I believe it is because good Znamenny is very difficult to sing. Znamenny, with a proper Demestvennik singing the low soglassya should sound like this:

Demestvenniy raspev [youtube.com]

"...introduced into the West"? The hymn was most likely written by the Benedictine monk Hermann of Reichenau: Hermann of Reichenau [en.wikipedia.org] Salve Regina [en.wikipedia.org]

The chant heard is called the simple melody to distinguish it from the older, more elaborate melody:

FAQ about Gregorian Chant - National Association of Pastoral Musicians [npm.org]

Prior to Czar Peter I (the not-so great), much went out of Rus, but very little came in. No harm in that. The thought of Benedictine monks singing Znamenny chant, I find agreeable, certainly better than "on Eagle's Wings" and other such drek! LOL!
The west has been borrowing Slavic and Russian music since it first became aware of those of us in the East. I still chuckle every forth of July to see Americans stand to hear Spasi, Gospodi, lyudi Tvoya i blagoslovi dostoyaniye Tvoye. Pobyedy pravoslavnym khristianom na soprovitivnyya daruya,
i Tvoye sokhranyaya kryestom Tvoyim zhityel' stvo.
O Lord, save Thy people and bless Thine inheritance, grant victories to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries,and preserve Thy dwelling through Thy cross. Which of course is the Russian Orthodox Tropar to the Life Giving Cross, which is from Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky's Overture of 1812. I sort of wonder if, during all those years of the Cold War, the Americans standing for this realized that they were praying for a Russian victory over America?

Unlike the west, the written record of the pre-Mongol period (988-mid 12th century), is fairly sparse. However, during this time frame, a large portion of the indigenous Slavic Liturgical music, which was later codified under what we now term Znamenny Chant was written. The monastic authors did not lay claim to their compositions, ascribing all to the glory of God. So the East is not able to lay the composition at the pen of any particular monk. In fact, the only recorded notation of Znamenny chant composition is to the pen of Tsar Ivan IV (Grozny) The time frame of the bulk of Znamenny chant is 600-700 years prior to the simple French melody that you refer to.

http://rpsc.ru/history/drevlepravoslavnie-tradicii/znamennoe-penie

You're entitled to your own (somewhat distorted) opinion.

"Slavic and Russian"? Exchanges between the Christian East and West predate the "conversion of the Slavs" by more than nine centuries.

Only on the fourth? In all my years as an American I have never had the experience described.

"Russian Qrthodox Tropar"? So Russia has given this troparion to the Greeks too as well as the rest of the world?

That's what all of us (made-up) Americans were doing? Except we weren't, or at least I wasn't.

As is done when it is factual, for instance, Romanos the Melodist [en.wikipedia.org].

And so also a similar timeline for the Gregorian repertoire. Generalities don't demonstrate the specific point. If there is factual -- real --- evidence of the Salve Regina and its simple chant melody originating in the east I'd be very interested and not displeased to find it so if it is the case. So far internet sources only attest (predominantly) to a western origin of the text and melody. I await documentation that it is otherwise, but at this point expect to be told instead that the Garden of Eden was actually in Russia.

The Salve was written by St Issac the Syrian.

Words? Chant? Both? Reference, documentation or better, actual text (English, Greek or Latin), please. I've seen this attribution but the sources seem somewhat specious or based on conjecture. And recall what the ROCOR monks are actually singing, words and melody. They are very specific.

Wonderful! That monastery is a great blessing for the Holy Orthodox Church!

An Anthology of Patristic Prayers, compiled and translated by Nikolaos S. Hatzinikolaou:

A Prayer to the Most Blessed Virgin

Rejoice! O Lady, Mother of mercy,
life, sweetness and our hope, rejoice!
To you we cry, the children of Eve in exile.
Upon you we gaze,
groaning and wailing in this valley of lamentation.
Wherefore, go ahead, our defender,
turn your compassionate eyes to us
and with this look show us Jesus
the blessed fruit of your womb,
O sweet Virgin Mary

Yes,this is the source that I had in mind as "somewhat specious or based on conjecture." Internet sources also have Hatzinikolaou attributing it to St. Isaac the Syrian. I'd like to see the page from his (out of print) book (Do you have it or is the text from the internet?) and ascertain the original language source for his translation. It seems too close to have been missed by those who consider the prayer a medieval Latin composition; but stranger goofs have happened. Nevertheless, I have my doubts based on this single source for the text; and there is still the question of the classification and origin of the (simple) chant in the video; the monk's text, also, differs from the Hatzinikolaou translation.

Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

The direction that this thread has taken is definitely not Christian, not in keeping with Holy Week or Great Lent.

I don't understand what has happened to the general tone that this whole forum is meant to take over the past months of this new year. The general antagonism of brothers and sisters to one another gladdens no one but our common Enemy.

Thank you, Alexandr, for this uplifting link to Holy Cross Monastery.

That said, this thread is closed.

Bob
Moderator

Bob,

I've had a complaint that the discussion was in no way unchristian. In reviewing the thread I see the discussion moving off the original topic, but not unchristian. I've reopened it. If I have a chance later I'll split the new discussion from the original thread and re-name it.

Thanks to all who participate and moderate.

John

I ran across this old thread from September 2009; it considered (also not directly as the stated topic), as has this one, the background of the Salve Regina. Forums and related topics do repeat themselves but I was surprised to read this one because I hadn't recalled it at all and had even participated in it: Re: Four Eastern Christian Churches in one morning.

The question of the authorship of the Salve Regina was raised and left unresolved in that discussion as it is here. One post there is of some note:



The present discussion has arrived at the same place as the last. The attribution of the hymn to St Isaac the Syrian needs documentation.

Guys, I dont mean to interject, but I'm not seeing it. I looked at several translations of the Salve Regina and I don't hear the Fathers singing it. I do hear the Mother of Mercy part, but nothing else matches. Am I not listening to the right spot? Can someone put a time hack up of where it is?

I don't reject the idea of the Fathers having been influenced, but this would not be my evidence. But, that's not the discussion.

At 0:00

Save us O Queen, Mother of Mercy
O our life our hope
O our sweetness save us
we exiled children
of our (ancient??) mother Eva
[hard to make out parts]
mourning...
sighing weeping... present valley of tears

Translations will differ some and there is also the Latin (original?). Also, note the melody too (perhaps even more so) and compare to the Gregorian version in my initial post of this thread.

I do, outside of St. Louis, with Fr. Kallistos.

AJK, I see it now. I thought there was something strange about that prayer. I have never heard it before in an Orthodox Church. Maybe in an Antiochian or similar parish, but not in a monastery. Good thing I jumped in when I did with the comment about House Springs.

Diak, And yes, Fr. Kallistos, one of the greatest priest ever. I visit his grave when I can to clean it off and refresh the pine branches. When the Fathers were there they didnt have any music like that. It was Dr. Timothy Clader that wrote the scores with the translations of Fr. Laurence.

Our parish still has all the hand written copies of the music. Did you know Fr. Kallistos?

I visited the monastery when it was at House Springs several times in the late 80s and early 90s. My paternal grandparents lived about 30 minutes from there at the time.

Great post we need more Holy Men, Women and Families.