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Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
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Would those be the same Orthodox that you were complaining about in your OP that they hold that "the Latin Church...ought to be...the premier proactive force for promoting...Orthodoxy"?

Nope. That wasn't a complaint, in fact, but an observation, and replacing my words with ellipses doesn't alter what I actually typed, does it?
Oh, and whom were you observing among the Orthodox (I leave it to you on your relationship with your "Eastern Catholicism")? I don't know of any Orthodox asking the Latin Church to promote Orthodoxy: can you tell us of some?

You seem here to render what you typed meaningless, and thus no meaning to alter, with or without ellipsis.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
My remarks, in that case, constituted a response to a contradiction I am observing with respect to complaints sprinkled throughout this forum that the Western Church meddles in the business of Eastern Churches, on the one hand, yet doesn't, through it's media, actively promote the Eastern Churches on the other. "Leave us completely alone...but count us in." I find that "damned if you do, damned if you don't" approach to the Roman Catholic Church more than a little unfair, to be honest. Don't you?
you work that out amongst yourselves.
Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
But no, the Orthodox I refer to are every single Orthodox priest and layman I have ever had the pleasure to meet (and by now I have met many), at whose churches I have had the pleasure to worship, and at whose halls and festivals I have had the pleasure to break bread with, who have always welcomed me with enthusiastic hospitality and have never had a negative word to speak about the Catholic Church, but who, on the contrary, have frequently echoed my own desire that communion between our Churches be re-established.
I do too. Just not at the price of Orthodoxy.
Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
There is a very healthy and lively ecumenical brotherhood of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches in my area. We lean on one another, we come to each others' aid, we attend each others' festivals, we promote each others' major events. Never have I encountered an Orthodox Christian with an axe to grind about Catholicism, and apart from traditionalist Roman Catholics who have an axe to grind about everyone, I am acquainted with no Catholics who have an axe to grind when it comes to Orthodoxy.
in that case you are fortunate. Or haven't noticed.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Quote
Western European...
Honestly. So I, an Irish-American, am of the same ethnicity as a Spaniard or a Norwegian? Are Roman Catholics in China, Korea, Taiwan, Japan, India, Vietnam, Polynesia, and the Philippines also of that one and the same "Western-European" Roman Catholic ethnicity?
Latinization isn't just for the sui juris. They call it Westernization in the broader context.

I don't think that Irish Melkite has turned Arab-although we would be glad to have him. Nor has my priest, Fr. Reardon, another Irish American. Yet the Melkite Church-Orthodox or in submission to the Vatican-is identified as the/an Arab Church, which it is, despite the fact that it celebrated its Divine Liturgies in English loooong before the "Universal Roman Catholic Church."

I am aware that this alleged universality of the Roman rite was given as a reason for the abolition of your Roman pontiff of the title "Patriarchate of the West." Just another malformed fiat.

Archbishop Daniel of Tokyo and Metropolitan of All Japan isn't Russian, nor is Metropolitan Volodymyr of Kiev and All Ukraine, nor Metropolitan Corenlius Yacobs of Tallin and All Estonia, nor Archbishop Mark Arndt of Berlin, nor Bishop John Bērziņš of Caracas and South America, nor was Bishop Pierre L'Huillier of Chersonese, Paris and Western Europe, nor was Bishop Basil Shuan of Peking and All China-Bishop Symeon Du of Shanghai was, but his forefathers had lived in Peking and intermarried with the Han for two centuries before his birth in Peking in 1885. Are you gong to argue they were any less Orthodox? Or that their Churches none the less bear the mark of the Mother Church of Moscow and All the Rus'?

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Oh, and whom were you observing among the Orthodox (I leave it to you on your relationship with your "Eastern Catholicism")? I don't know of any Orthodox asking the Latin Church to promote Orthodoxy: can you tell us of some?

Not among the Orthodox Church but among some who participate in this the forum. Re-read this thread, for example.

Quote
I do too. Just not at the price of Orthodoxy.

But you'd rather we just left you alone, altogether, of course. You've made that much clear. I'll worry about that when you become Ecumenical Patriarch. Until you become the first voice of Eastern Orthodoxy, however, I'll permit myself to retain the high opinion I have of my Orthodox brothers and remain optimistic about the prospects of a restored communion between us.

With respect to your final paragraph, I'm really not sure what your point is in any of that, to be honest. I haven't argued that there isn't a universality to Orthodoxy. On the contrary, I have, any number of times in this forum, in fact, pointed out the universality of Orthodoxy and Eastern Christianity, regarding it as unfortunate that the Eastern Church is so chopped up into ethnic enclaves and tied up with certain nationalities. So-called "Eastern" Christianity is, indeed, universal, and it would gain more ground, it seems to me, if it were simply a matter of "The Orthodox Church" or "The Byzantine Catholic Church" and not "The Greek Orthodox Church" or "The Russian Orthodox Church" or "The Serbian Orthodox Church" or "The Ukrainian Catholic Church" or "The Ruthenian Catholic Church" or what have you. I have always said as much. Your quarrel on that point is not with me.

I simply asked you to back up your curious charge that there is a single ethnicity with respect to the (so-called) Roman Catholic Church. There isn't one, of course. Furthermore, there is no "Italian Roman Catholic Church" which Catholics of Italian ethnicity go to, no "Irish Roman Catholic Church" which Catholics of Irish ethnicity attend, no "French Roman Catholic Church" which Catholics of French heritage cleave to, no "Japanese Catholic Church" just for Japanese Catholics, and so on. No. In multi-ethnic countries like the United States and Canada, Roman Catholics simply attend Mass at the parish nearest to their house, entirely irrespective of (and oblivious to) the ethnic makeup of the church. Your charge that Roman Catholics are all of a single ethnicity is simply nonsensical.

But have I charged that all Orthodox are of a single ethnicity? No. The fact remains, however, that Greek Orthodox are mostly Greeks. Serbian Orthodox are mostly Serbs. Russian Orthodox are mostly of Russian descent. In that sense, the Orthodox can seem "ethnocentric". In that simple observation, however, there is no charge whatsoever that Orthodoxy, in and of itself, hasn't about it a universality or the potential for universal appeal. Some, however, seem pleased to argue for the sake of argument even when there is agreement.

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Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Quote
Oh, and whom were you observing among the Orthodox (I leave it to you on your relationship with your "Eastern Catholicism")? I don't know of any Orthodox asking the Latin Church to promote Orthodoxy: can you tell us of some?

Not among the Orthodox Church but among some who participate in this the forum. Re-read this thread, for example.
Originally Posted by bergschlawiner
I have seen this same documentary several times over the years and it is well made, shows both GC and Ukrainian Orthodox. My one criticism is that it appears to have been made pre-1990 in the Gorbachev days and dwells on the persecuted Ukrainian Churches and the immigrant churches in Canada which makes it old history. EWTN's reports on Iraqi Christians are also outdated. Why can't EWTN bring more recent reports on current situations instead of repeatedly re-airing these old reports. It would be nice to see the present day Churches in Ukraine. Sorry for being disappointed in EWTN.

Also most of the reports I have seen on the Eastern Churches have been in the middle of the night.

Maybe they could add some variety to their daily mass, which seems to be using more and more latin, but having an Eastern Liturgy once in a while. Maybe even an "anglican rite" mass. The daily mass may be wonderful for shut ins but is really not all that interesting.

Sorry to say that I find the EWTN programming to be very uninteresting with repeated daily masses from the same church, the same rosaries, endless Mother Angelica re-runs, conversations between priests, etc. Other than the World Over I rarely watch it. It would be nice if they had up to date documentaries and services from the various European cathedrals including the Eastern churches on Sundays and holidays. Would it have been so wrong if they had televised Christmas or Easter Liturgies from Eastern Europe? Even Orthodox? The masses, rosaries, benedictions, etc may be fine for shut ins but not over and over.
Not quite a cry across the Tiber for the Vatican to send forth the Jesuit calvary, more a cry for something interesting.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Quote
I do too. Just not at the price of Orthodoxy.
But you'd rather we just left you alone, altogether, of course. You've made that much clear. I'll worry about that when you become Ecumenical Patriarch. Until you become the first voice of Eastern Orthodoxy, however, I'll permit myself to retain the high opinion I have of my Orthodox brothers and remain optimistic about the prospects of a restored communion between us.

With respect to your final paragraph, I'm really not sure what your point is in any of that, to be honest. I haven't argued that there isn't a universality to Orthodoxy. On the contrary, I have, any number of times in this forum, in fact, pointed out the universality of Orthodoxy and Eastern Christianity, regarding it as unfortunate that the Eastern Church is so chopped up into ethnic enclaves and tied up with certain nationalities. So-called "Eastern" Christianity is, indeed, universal, and it would gain more ground, it seems to me, if it were simply a matter of "The Orthodox Church" or "The Byzantine Catholic Church" and not "The Greek Orthodox Church" or "The Russian Orthodox Church" or "The Serbian Orthodox Church" or "The Ukrainian Catholic Church" or "The Ruthenian Catholic Church" or what have you. I have always said as much. Your quarrel on that point is not with me.
It is simply a matter of "The Orthodox Catholic Church." Except for those pursuing a divide and conquer policy.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
I simply asked you to back up your curious charge that there is a single ethnicity with respect to the (so-called) Roman Catholic Church. There isn't one, of course.
It is a delusion that "Western European" isn't ethnic.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Furthermore, there is no "Italian Roman Catholic Church" which Catholics of Italian ethnicity go to, no "Irish Roman Catholic Church" which Catholics of Irish ethnicity attend, no "French Roman Catholic Church" which Catholics of French heritage cleave to, no "Japanese Catholic Church" just for Japanese Catholics, and so on.
No. In multi-ethnic countries like the United States and Canada, Roman Catholics simply attend Mass at the parish nearest to their house, entirely irrespective of (and oblivious to) the ethnic makeup of the church.
Ah. So between not knowing or not noticing, it seems you fall into the latter category. Because I know plenty of people, in the United States, Europe (yes, including Western Europe), Egypt, the Near East...who pass by a number of parishes of their co-religionists-and co-rituaists-to go to their own ethnic parish in communion with the Vatican. Not that I have any problem with that.

Conversely, I know plenty of Orthodox who go to the nearest Orthodox Church, no matter the nationality involved.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Your charge that Roman Catholics are all of a single ethnicity is simply nonsensical.
btw, have you ever been out of the States? Outside your home town?

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
But have I charged that all Orthodox are of a single ethnicity? No. The fact remains, however, that Greek Orthodox are mostly Greeks. Serbian Orthodox are mostly Serbs. Russian Orthodox are mostly of Russian descent.
Imagine that. Most Italian communicants I know are of Italian descent. In fact 100%.

Tautologies are like that.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
In that sense, the Orthodox can seem "ethnocentric". In that simple observation, however, there is no charge whatsoever that Orthodoxy, in and of itself, hasn't about it a universality or the potential for universal appeal. Some, however, seem pleased to argue for the sake of argument even when there is agreement.
and some have seen agreement where there is none.

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Good night, nurse; you're something else.

Peace be with you.

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Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Good night, nurse; you're something else.

Peace be with you.

That's a good response to that stuff. "...tamquam leo rugiens, circuit quaerens quem devoret: cui resistite in fide!"

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Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Good night, nurse; you're something else.

Peace be with you.

That's a good response to that stuff. "...tamquam leo rugiens, circuit quaerens quem devoret: cui resistite in fide!"
Physician, heal thyself.

And get a lease for your lion.

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Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Utroque
Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Good night, nurse; you're something else.

Peace be with you.

That's a good response to that stuff. "...tamquam leo rugiens, circuit quaerens quem devoret: cui resistite in fide!"
Physician, heal thyself.

And get a leaseh for your lion.

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Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Quote
Would those be the same Orthodox that you were complaining about in your OP that they hold that "the Latin Church...ought to be...the premier proactive force for promoting...Orthodoxy"?

Nope. That wasn't a complaint, in fact, but an observation, and replacing my words with ellipses doesn't alter what I actually typed, does it?
Oh, and whom were you observing among the Orthodox (I leave it to you on your relationship with your "Eastern Catholicism")? I don't know of any Orthodox asking the Latin Church to promote Orthodoxy: can you tell us of some?

You seem here to render what you typed meaningless, and thus no meaning to alter, with or without ellipsis.

You should re-read Roman Interloper's original post; I believe you saw something in it that simply isn't there.

He said:
"Someone explain to me how the Latin Church shouldn't interfere with the Eastern Church, yet ought to be, at the same time, the premier proactive force for promoting the Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy."

As I understand it, he was saying that some posters claim that "the Latin Church shouldn't interfere with the Eastern Church, yet ought to be, at the same time, the premier proactive force for promoting the Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy." He never said that those posters are Orthodox.

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Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Pavloosh
EWTN unfortunately can be described as "latincatholicophile"!
It indeed breathes with one lung.

Back in its heyday, under Mother Angelica, there used to be a number of programs which dealt with the "sui juris" a lot. I recall her one time saying how she dreamed of one day broadcasting all 22 of their liturgies (though I think she said "mass"), a program on Bulgaria where sui juris primate claimed that his church was the only one persecuted in communist Bulgaria, crypto-Christian Albanians in Kosovo (though they may have been Latin rite) and even an experiment with a Melkite program in Arabic. References and discussions to the Orthodox were also common, not always a good thing: one common leitmotif was the assertion that one could be a "good Catholic"-i.e. a loyal son of the Vatican-and a "good Russian" as well,

Good heavens! Next you'll be telling us that one can be Orthodox and American too!

Oh wait. grin

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Originally Posted by 8IronBob
I thought Fr. Tom Loya was a frequent Eastern Rite contributor to EWTN... Where's he been when we needed him to get his two cents in for our representation?

So ... what was he doing all that time he was there?

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Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Quote
Would those be the same Orthodox that you were complaining about in your OP that they hold that "the Latin Church...ought to be...the premier proactive force for promoting...Orthodoxy"?

Nope. That wasn't a complaint, in fact, but an observation, and replacing my words with ellipses doesn't alter what I actually typed, does it?
Oh, and whom were you observing among the Orthodox (I leave it to you on your relationship with your "Eastern Catholicism")? I don't know of any Orthodox asking the Latin Church to promote Orthodoxy: can you tell us of some?

You seem here to render what you typed meaningless, and thus no meaning to alter, with or without ellipsis.

You should re-read Roman Interloper's original post; I believe you saw something in it that simply isn't there.

He said:
"Someone explain to me how the Latin Church shouldn't interfere with the Eastern Church, yet ought to be, at the same time, the premier proactive force for promoting the Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy."

As I understand it, he was saying that some posters claim that "the Latin Church shouldn't interfere with the Eastern Church, yet ought to be, at the same time, the premier proactive force for promoting the Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy." He never said that those posters are Orthodox.
Like I said, just leave us out of it.

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Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Pavloosh
EWTN unfortunately can be described as "latincatholicophile"!
It indeed breathes with one lung.

Back in its heyday, under Mother Angelica, there used to be a number of programs which dealt with the "sui juris" a lot. I recall her one time saying how she dreamed of one day broadcasting all 22 of their liturgies (though I think she said "mass"), a program on Bulgaria where sui juris primate claimed that his church was the only one persecuted in communist Bulgaria, crypto-Christian Albanians in Kosovo (though they may have been Latin rite) and even an experiment with a Melkite program in Arabic. References and discussions to the Orthodox were also common, not always a good thing: one common leitmotif was the assertion that one could be a "good Catholic"-i.e. a loyal son of the Vatican-and a "good Russian" as well,

Good heavens! Next you'll be telling us that one can be Orthodox and American too!

Oh wait. grin
You can. I'm not, but one can.

You left out the punch line:
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
asserted by those who would find the Polish Orthodox (now the majority of the Orthodox Church in Poland since 1948 it seems) a contradiction in terms.

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Originally Posted by IAlmisry
You left out the punch line:
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
asserted by those who would find the Polish Orthodox (now the majority of the Orthodox Church in Poland since 1948 it seems) a contradiction in terms.

Touche.

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Originally Posted by Ot'ets Nastoiatel'
EWTN represents the emphysemic and asthmatic pre-Vatican II Church breathing (barely) with one lung on life support! It blithely ignores the Eastern Churches, whether Catholic or Orthodox. When it does turn its jaundiced eye in their direction, it disseminates outdated siege-mentality boilerplate. As to those who confess that EWTN and Fox News are their favorite networks, what can one say but that there are none blinder than those that refuse to see.
Well, for a network that is "emphysemic and asthmatic" and "breathing (barely) with one lung on life support", it certainly is thriving. One only need to read Mother Angelica: The Remarkable Story of a Nun, Her Nerve, and a Network of Miracles by Raymond Arroyo and see that it was Divine Providence that got EWTN off the ground.

(Side note: Not having two lungs is certainly not an impediment to serving the Lord as we plainly see with His Holiness, Pope Francis.)

EWTN came at a time when many Catholics in the USA were getting watered-down Catholicism, "warm, fuzzy, feel good, I'm OK, you're OK" theology and preaching, and "YOUcharistic" liturgies that put more attention on the creature rather than the Creator.

Would a network started by the LCWR or the National Catholic Reporter be more "balanced"? Why have others attempted their own networks and failed?

EWTN is not perfect, but one cannot deny the fruits it has borne for the Church.

The comment that EWTN "blithely ignores the Eastern Churches" is simply not accurate as I have pointed out in my previous posts.

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Originally Posted by griego catolico
The comment that EWTN "blithely ignores the Eastern Churches" is simply not accurate

I agree. I also don't get the comments like
"Where's [Fr. Tom Loya] been when we needed him to get his two cents in for our representation?"
I'm sure he did a ton of putting "his two cents in for our representation".

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