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Sergei also finds himself at odds with many of the leading lights of Orthodoxy--Metropolitan Kallistos, Metropolitan John of Pergamon, Metropolitan Hilarion, David Bently Hart, Olivier Clement, and some old guy named Bartholomew--the list goes on and on. The "modernist" foxes seem to have run of the hen house. Even ROCOR seems to be looking more and more kindly upon us poor uniates.

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Originally Posted by The young fogey
No sale.

And yet, no one excommunicated Fr. Dulles; they made him a cardinal.

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I also point Sergei to this recent address by Patriarch Gregorios, whose spiritual leadership as head of the Melkite Church I not only support but endorse:

Ecclesiology and Ecumenism

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Originally Posted by StuartK
Sergei's problem is his experience of Eastern Catholics is generally limited to tame, latinized, uniate-mineded Ruthenians.
Being "latinized" doesn't necessarily go hand-in-hand with being in favor a uniatism. (If it did, then by extension wouldn't the pope be the most extreme pro-uniatism person you'd ever meet?)

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In fairness (hopefully) to Sergei's position, I would say that regardless of whether you see IC, PI, UOJ etc. as intrinsically dogma or not, they are the "law of the land" in the Roman Communion.

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Most Eastern Catholics are Ukrainian Catholics; the first Eastern Christians I knew, 30 years ago, were refugees from the western Ukraine, from the war. You could call them Ukrainian Catholics, Greek Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Uniates, or Roman Catholics; anything but Russian or Orthodox, even though they were obviously related.

I don't remember denying the likelihood that noted Orthodox bishops and professors hold an opinion of never-Orthodox Greek Catholics that mirrors Catholic doctrine regarding never-Catholic Orthodox. Like the late, great Archbishop Vsevolod did; nice man. So what am I at odds with?

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I do believe that (on its own terms) legitimate papal definitions of the faith will necessarily agree with the teaching of the Church in general.

That's fine. Is that what you were attributing to Dulles? That's just assent to Catholic doctrine, exactly what Modernists and OicwRs don't do.

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How to explain former Patriarch Lyubomir's statement (on EWTN, no less!), that "Between the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics, there are no theological differences", not to mention Patriarch Sviatoslav's self-description as being and Orthodox Christian in communion with the Church of Rome?

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Easy: every positive doctrinal definition of the Orthodox is true. The post-schism Catholic definitions are developments of them; officially the jury's out in Orthodoxy on them. But while Catholicism teaches that the Orthodox have grace (real bishops, a real Mass), the Orthodox allow the opinion that post-schism Catholicism's a complete fraud.

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Originally Posted by The young fogey
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I do believe that (on its own terms) legitimate papal definitions of the faith will necessarily agree with the teaching of the Church in general.

That's fine. Is that what you were attributing to Dulles? That's just assent to Catholic doctrine, exactly what Modernists and OicwRs don't do.

Those were the very grounds on which I was suggesting that there are good reasons for doubting that the assent required--to the authentic faith of the church--is required of the formulation of these two definitions.




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In context, Sviatoslav must mean what Rome thinks 'Orthodoxy in communion with Rome' should - liturgically Orthodox, doctrinally Catholic but expressing it in Orthodox terms, all of which is foreign to most Greek Catholics, who are essentially Latin Catholics using the Greek Rite - rather than Stuart's longtime OicwR dissent game.

Oh, I see: you're claiming Dulles claimed those Catholic doctrines don't measure up. No sale.

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Dulles didn't say scrap those doctrines, and neither did I. Rather, he used them as an occasion to discuss some of the limits of papal infallibility and how far assent extends and how far it doesn't.


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What does that have to do with OicwR dissent? OicwRs are like Protestants who happen to agree with the Orthodox, neither good Catholics nor good Orthodox.

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Dear Stuart,

Yes, Husar was simply repeating what Bl. Patriarch Josyf the Confessor said in that regard.

However, high-ranking members of his own Particular Church disagreed with both in that department.

In fact, Sergei's assessment of the UGCC members being essentially RC with Eastern liturgical forms is, for the most part, accurate.

Add to this that there are Eastern traditions that many Ukrainian Catholics would be repulsed by as they represent, to them, a form of Russification.

Finally, many of us well-meaning Ukrainian Catholics (myself included) go around saying things like that e.g. there are no differences between O's and GC's. But the Orthodox would be the first to disagree and to even be quite offended by the comment.

And the UGCC ecumenism in this regard seems to be running into the sand . . . The UGCC has relations with the UOC-KP and this has now led to bad feelings in the UOC-MP camp. As you will know, Met. Vladimir Sabodan of the UOC-MP was quite angry at Svyatoslav and expressed his anger at the recent MP Synod.

Thank you for referring to Svyatoslav as "Patriarch." Not everyone, even within the UGCC, does that, you know . . .

Alex

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Nobody should cite the notoriously tendentious Adriano Garuti or listen to him. As I've shown elsewhere, and as numerous other historians, canonists, and theologians have all shown, he brazenly disregards inconvenient facts and invents ones he likes. Furthermore, his book on Roman primacy is a highly deceitful book, constantly blurring the boundaries between his own private, fallacious views, and the CDF for which he worked at the time--trying to use the latter to give the former a patina of respectability.

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Who are these OicwR types you keep mentioning? Name six--real names of six people of even very modest prominence and influence. Have they significant publications, noteworthy journals, substantial websites, prominent positions of authority in the Church--bishops perhaps? Name six. Because otherwise they are starting to sound like a bunch of ciphers.

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