www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology How Catholics should berate Orthodox

Dear Friends,

This is in response to Orthoman's thread that was closed by the Administrator.

I wanted to start a new one on the only proper way Catholics should berate their Orthodox brothers and sisters.

Since Orthoman is handy, I thought I would make him my target.

To me, Orthoman is the quintessential committed Christian.

He gets ill sometimes in his passion and zeal for this faith in Christ.

His dedication to his Church is envied by all who know him.

If he had a hobby, one would never know it since, to paraphrase St Thomas More, "God is his god."

Orthoman loves his family and friends without reserve.

He can criticize you, but he never loses sight of his love for you.

He wants to make converts to Orthodoxy as he sees this as the greatest spiritual compliment he can ever pay anyone.

He doesn't have to walk with the angels - they already walk with him.

In any event, this is one possible way in which we Catholics can go after our Orthodox brothers.

Sorry, Orthoman, for anything I said that was overtly untoward!

Alex

[Sorry, Orthoman, for anything I said that was overtly untoward!

Alex]

Can't think of anything that lasted more than 2 minutes Alex.

[He wants to make converts to Orthodoxy as he sees this as the greatest spiritual compliment he can ever pay anyone.]

He wants you all to come home to the faith of your fathers where you belong. As his grandparents did which is probably the greatest gift they ever gave him. It hurts him to see you being treated like second class Roman Catholics when you can be first class Orthodox Catholics.
Like the father awaits the prodigal sons return, he awaits yours. The table is prepared and the fatted calf is waiting.

OrthoMan

Sometimes that "zeal" can be used to cover extremism and intolerance. I think there are better examples of Orthodoxy like the Reposed Father Lev Gillet and His Grace, Bishop Kallistos. They are my models of Orthodox Christian.
You can be committed and not be hateful.

[You can be committed and not be hateful. ]

And you can also be committed and truthful. Especially when presenting the 'other side of the coin' or reminding some one that 'people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'. As the old says goes...Sometimes the truth can hurt.

OrthoMan

But it's very hard work. Partisanship all too easily lends itself to a distorted view of the truth.

djs

Come, Holy Spirit!

[He wants to make converts to Orthodoxy as he sees this as the greatest spiritual compliment he can ever pay anyone.]

To which OrthoMan replies:

Like the father awaits the prodigal sons return, he awaits yours. The table is prepared and the fatted calf is waiting.

So in the parable of the prodigal son as given by Our Lord, you see yourself and neither the older brother or the prodigal, but rather as the awaiting father....

(I am not sure the Fathers of the Church would agree with your interpretation here).

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: Gerard Serafin ]

Come, Holy Spirit!

OrthoMan writes of himself:

He wants you all to come home to the faith of your fathers where you belong. As his grandparents did which is probably the greatest gift they ever gave him. It hurts him to see you being treated like second class Roman Catholics when you can be first class Orthodox Catholics.

I think I can understand how you might feel this way and that this is your hope.

Perhaps then you can understand how someone could wish for you that you finally become fully Catholic, in communion with countless brothers and sisters of every race, rite, culture, who share eucharistic communion with the successor of the Apostle Peter, the head of the apostles.

Indeed, this is what I pray for you and for all who are not yet fully incorporated into the mystery of the One Holy CATHOLIC and Apostolic Church.

So it works both ways, it seems to me. I do not begrudge you your desire and prayer; I hope you do not begrudge me mine.

God bless us all and have mercy on us all (and, of course, only God knows who are fully incorporated into the Mystery of Triune Life and Love!).

OrthoMan,
I thank you for this, it is a laudable goal but....

I already am home in the faith of my fathers. They were Byzantine Catholics, before that they may have been Orthodox at some point, but if we go back far enough we will see that they were in communion with Rome in the beginning.

So I hope you do not take offense when I say the same thing about you, come home orthoman, to the faith of your fathers!


Your brother in Christ,
David

[They were Byzantine Catholics, before that they may have been Orthodox at some point, but if we go back far enough we will see that they were in communion with Rome in the beginning.
So I hope you do not take offense when I say the same thing about you, come home orthoman, to the faith of your fathers!]

David, my brother in Christ. Read the history of your church as well as the history of Christianity.

OrthoMan

OrthoMan,
To be respectful.....

I do not see your answer, "Read the history....."

Give me a break, if you have a suggestion as to something to read that is fine, but to say "Read the history...." is not constructive at all.

David

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Guys, guys,

My whole point about this thread was to try and give an example about how we should be treating one another with respect.

If I've screwed up and led everyone down a wrong path in this respect, I respectfully ask the Moderator to close this thread now before someone draws blood . . .

Alex

[Give me a break, if you have a suggestion as to something to read that is fine, but to say "Read the history...." is not constructive at all.]

OK. You can start off by reading 'The Orthodox Church' by Timothy Ware (now Bishop Kallistos Ware). He is highly respected by both Roman Catholics and Byzantine/Ukrainian Catholics. It's in paperback and can be obtained in most book stores.

Your reply indicates that you are misguided about a few things.

1) That to be 'In Communion' with Rome always meant to be under its authority. (Rome was also 'in communion' with the other Patriarchates)

2) That the Orthodox Catholic Church didn't come into existence until 1054.

3) That what you refer to as the 'Byzantine Catholic Church' is the mother church of the Orthodox Catholic Church.

This book will help you get a more accurate perspective of not only the history of Christianity from Pentecost but the history of the Orthodox Catholic Church which can also be traced to that day of Pentecost.

These misconceptions and historical inaccuracies do nothing to aid in the reunion of both the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Catholic Church. They just inflame the passions when they are used to enhance false information to the public. Such as a Byzantine Catholic priest claiming on national television that the greatest Byzantine Catholic Church in the world was Hagia Sophia!

OrthoMan

Orthoman,

You can say what you wish: "Such as a Byzantine Catholic priest claiming on national television that the greatest Byzantine Catholic Church in the world was Hagia Sophia!'

But his claim was dead on accurate.

Dan Lauffer

I am in the process of reading this book.


No, your assumption as to what I think is that I am misguided.

Maybe we should ask more quesitons to "nail" down what people think rather than flying off the handle at what we assume they think.



Did I say this? Have I ever said this? Again, you assume.

As I have said else where, to say that what the Orthodox have today is the same as in the beginning is incorrect, because in the beginning they were in communion with Rome.


I understand this, just as the Catholic Church didn't come into existance until 1054 either.


Where did I do this? But I submit that none of the current Orthodox Churches are the mother of the Orthodox Catholic Church either.

Nothing is right until the Churches reunite. Until the two separted halves of the One True Church come together to repair the Church of God.


You mean it will help me get a more accurate perspective of what Bishop Ware perceives as the history of Christianity. There is no such thing as an unbiases report of history, just as no one can translate a work from one language to another with out some interpretation going on.


So whats wrong with that statement? Hagia Sophia wasn't a Church? It's not the greatest? Or it's not Byzantine?

OrthoMan, to clear up some confusion on my part, rather than assuming something I am asking you, what is your religious affiliation, what Church do you belong to? I wish to try and understand where you are coming from.

This is why I requested that the Admin add this field to the profiles, but I see that some still do not use it. I wonder why....


Your brother in Christ,
David

Dan --

Haghia Sophia a BC Church? Come on! It's the mother church of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople. The Church of Constantinople never once -- pre-schism or after -- referred to itself as "Byzantine Catholic" -- it most commonly referred to itself (again, regardless of the time) as "Orthodox" and sometimes as "Orthodox Catholic Church", but the term "Byzantine Catholic Church" is a product of uniatism and the need to affirm (1) Byzantine heritage with (2) Catholic ecclesiastical allegiance while (3) scrupulously avoiding the use of the word "Orthodox".

As has been pointed out by numerous historians, the "Byzantines" and the "Byzantine Empire" never referred to themselves as such.

David --

Orthoman is a layman in the Orthodox Church of America.

Brendan