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Originally Posted by haydukovich
Of course we look to tradition - but tradition does evolve.

Some religious have stated - that it is a man made law - not a law of God - and can be abrogated at any time -

but simply has not been abrogated

Is it time for the evolution of religion? Is it wrong for Catholicism to change? If Catholicism is not allowed to change - they better go back to the Eastern Orthodox Church on hands and knees asking forgiveness - no? Does tradition trump what we know about human nature (that even celibates are sexual beings whether they like it or not)?
Why not do the same for bishops in the East and West as well? They are of equal weight and same standing.

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Originally Posted by haydukovich
Some religious have stated - that it is a man made law - not a law of God - and can be abrogated at any time -

but simply has not been abrogated.
Haydukovich,

I think there's an important distinction that needs to be made between "abrogating" a law and making exceptions to it. Abrogating means doing away with the law altogether. A law can also be *derogated*, which means that certain exceptions, limits or other changes are added to the law. However, it is not necessary to make any permanent changes to a law if an exception is declared in light of special circumstances, which would certainly be the case if Rome were to begin allowing married priests.

I think a lot of careful consideration would need to be given for priests who left the active ministry for no other reason than to get married--a blanket re-admission would be equally unjust as a blanket rejection. It wouldn't be easy, but I think it could be done.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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A very good point Father Deacon Richard - especially about admissions and rejections.

another question I have is
have we become dysfunctional in our thinking and our behavior toward this issue?





Last edited by haydukovich; 09/18/13 12:34 AM.
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Why not indeed

I believe THE RUDDER states that a Bishop should be the husband of just one wife and loyal to her ...

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I sound almost anglican here ... but really I have more questions than answers ...

Marriage of the Hierarchy of East and West (well of The Church) was originally the way the Early Christin Church operated right?

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Originally Posted by haydukovich
Have we become dysfunctional in our thinking and our behavior toward this issue?
This, and other issues as well.

It is part of our fallen nature to seek after what is tangible to us. For some, this can only be worldly success, honors and pleasures--nothing spiritual. For those who have been radically transformed in Christ (i.e. saints), on the other hand, the spiritual reality of the Kingdom of God really is tangible. The rest of us, however, are continually seeking after that which is both spiritual and tangible.

This sounds like a bad thing, but really, all our religious practices are just that: tangible expressions of spiritual realities. The key here is that they are visible things that point to the invisible, tangible things that point to the intangible. The problem comes in when we confuse the two, and become so attached to the expression that we lose sight of what is being expressed. This is where the expression takes on more importance than properly belongs to it.

At this point, it becomes easy to look at the differences in expression (or tradition) of different Christian groups, and conclude that the others have to be somehow less Christian than we are. We come up with a lot of high-sounding words to "prove" that we're right, but ultimately, we're engaging in dysfunctional thinking.


Originally Posted by haydukovich
Marriage of the Hierarchy of East and West (well of The Church) was originally the way the Early Christin Church operated right?
Yes. The practice came to an end when more and more bishops were successfully arranging for their sons to succeed them, thereby keeping the power and prestige (read: worldly benefits) of the office "in the family."

[Oh, I just re-read your question here: "marriage of the hierarchy," meaning ordination of married men--never marriage of ordained men.]

At the same time, monasticism had emerged as a bastion of the true Christian spirit, so it was only natural to select bishops from among their ranks.


Originally Posted by haydukovich
I believe THE RUDDER states that a Bishop should be the husband of just one wife and loyal to her ...
Quote
The bishop therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, modest, hospitable, good at teaching; not a drinker, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having children in subjection with all reverence; (but if a man doesn't know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the assembly of God?) (1Tim 3:3-5)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Last edited by Epiphanius; 09/18/13 09:09 PM. Reason: to add clarification
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Originally Posted by haydukovich
They accept anglican and episcopal married men as priests - certainly that is worse than a Roman Catholic Priest who falls in love and marries is it not?
I don't know if I would say that. Some might see it as a form of proselytizing, but I would argue that it isn't -- it's a reasonable accommodation for someone who wants to become Catholic of his own accord, not a way to push someone to become Catholic.

So I would say, No it isn't worse at all.

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Glory to Jesus Christ!
In thinking of what spiritual fathers who are monastics have said about asceticism as a universal call that is uniquely answered by monastics, we should keep in mind that prior to the legalization the Church, red martyrdom was a call to offer one's self fully. White martyrdom through the monastic/celibate life flowed naturally from such a call, and its prevalence could be arguably increased by the absence of calls to red martyrdom. Because Bishops occupy the role of shepherd of the flock in an eparchy/diocese, it's not surprising that they have traditionally been called from the white martyrs, as monks have answered that call.

That we would simultaneously have a rich tradition of parish priests who are married is no conflict, and I will be overjoyed to hear of more openness to this other tradition as time goes on.

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With respect to all:
Even with all the Roman Rite wacky "liturgy" currently prevalent as well as dissent from basic Christian doctrines, one thing has remained: Pope Leo XIII's declaration of the invalidity of Anglican Orders. Lutheran and Episcopal ministers are not considered ordained at all. Mandatory re-ordination is required (there are occasional exceptions). Thus, these married ministers are not actually ministers at all and thus are married men to be ordained. There is no contradiction here. Just as Latin Deacons may be taken from the ranks of married men and Greek Catholic married men may be ordained Deacons and Priests (which is normative for the Orthodox Church), these Protestant ministers are simple laymen from a sacramental reality. Again, I do not mean to offend. Fr. Deacon Trevor

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Well, apparently married clergy is not a problem in the Eastern tradition, although most were either married in Eastern Europe prior to ordination, or the clergy were married in Orthodoxy, ordained, then received in the Eastern Catholic tradition.

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Dear Father Deacon,

I agree wholeheartedly - careful consideration for these (thousands) of Latin Rite priests should be given. Blanket readmissions never work well . . .

JBenedict pointed to the "so-called Apostolic Canons" (what else would we call them? wink ), but then Rome herself has likewise broken a few of these in her life-time (fasting rules etc.).

I also apologise for my sometimes negative estimation of the "Protestantism" of the contemporary Latin Catholic Church. I will stop with that.

Axios!

Alex

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Dear JBenedict,

It is somewhat disingenuous to say that they had the option to get married but they got ordained instead.

We're talking about the possibility of married priests in the Latin Rite, which would be a return to the more ancient tradition of the universal Church.

They had NO option to be married prior to ordination.

Epiphanius' post on this matter is a very balanced and pastorally sensitive one (which I'm sure you may agree).

Alex

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Married men may be ordained to the presbyterate; presbyters may not marry. Period. Full stop. End of discussion.

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Originally Posted by StuartK
Married men may be ordained to the presbyterate; presbyters may not marry. Period. Full stop. End of discussion.
I guess all those men and their so-called wives are all living in sin.

End of sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
I also apologise for my sometimes negative estimation of the "Protestantism" of the contemporary Latin Catholic Church. I will stop with that.
Not to split hairs, but I don't believe that you should "stop with that" flat-out. I mean, our view of "Protestantism" should in fact be somewhat negative, right?

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