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#39943 05/15/03 12:06 AM
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Dearest Alex,
I applaude your exhuberance in defending the "true faith" and your wit as well. However, after reading many of your posts and responses I have to ask you, why are you still a Greek Catholic? Yes, there are so many injustices and the eastern catholics are treated like dogs. Even small churches like my own, which ardently strives, with the blessings of a very "othodox" parochial administrator, for a "return to our roots", we are constantly held up by wimpy bishops appointed by Rome. We have two Franciscans for cryin out loud who are now Eastern Catholic hierarchs! We can't wear clerical hats, confession is done INSIDE the Holy Place for both men and women, we have no minor orders and when such discussion is found, it is preceeded with the most clericalistic acclaimation that a "formation" program is first required. The formation for minor orders has always taken place at the parish level. Now this new thing about eucharistic ministers and a new "minor order" of eucharistic minister all done up with a bishops blessing during the liturgy and the vesting in the stikarion. What the heck? Why are you still here?! I'd like to know because I am questioning why I am still here and so I pray you temper your response with prayer as a fragile soul is at stake here.

In peace,
Athanasius

#39944 05/15/03 01:50 AM
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I am sorry but I feel the need to jump in here.

Maybe the question should be: Why are we ALL still Greek Catholics?

And also, my response to the comments on how things aren't they way they should be or are promised, so instead of leaving, stay and WORK FROM THE INSIDE. I have been saying that for the last year or two here on this forum. Stay in your parish. Become a leader, or better yet, enter the priesthood and make changes, but first- pray pray and pray. Pray to all of our martyrs who died horrific deaths this past century for this faith. Ask for their zeal and courage to stand up and make changes for our church. Ask our Risen Saviour for mercy and ask for Holy Spirit to guide us.

My two cents.... and now Alex's response smile

-uc

#39945 05/15/03 02:38 AM
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In response to you dear Ukie,
I have been working from the "inside" for over 10 years. I saw great strides with metropolitan Judson and I saw those strides happen in SPITE of our other spineless hierarches and I have begun to see those great strides fade in the "new" hierarchy. Further, I have the grace of being married with children and so will never join the ranks of the elite fraternal order of celebates who seem to keep a death grip on the church. Working from the inside is very difficult, pray aside, in that much of what often occures happens behind the scenes and the laity only find out about it until it's set in stone. But yes, I do agree that asking the intercession of the martyres and saints can only benefit the cause of orthodoxy in communion with Rome.

In peace,
Athanasius

#39946 05/15/03 09:04 AM
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Anthanasius:

I suspect that each person has a reason for being Eastern Catholic. For some it is cultural, for others it may be the connection with Rome is more important than the problems that brings. If, as Scripture teaches, there is "one faith, one baptism" then there should also be a unity of that faith and baptism that is lived out in a communion of Churches.

The Orthodox justify their position by saying that Rome fell away from the "one faith" by adding to the faith, changing the faith, being untrue to the faith (depending on the Church the explanation varies). If one believes this to be the case then one must, by Divine command, follow one's conscience out of the Catholic communion.

On the other hand, if one does not believe this but simply acknowleges a legitimate path for Western Christianity that does not, in and of itself, require Eastern Christianity to agree -- then one cannot leave.

Several years ago at a deacon's retreat I was reminded that we need to be aware of the "comfortable Church" -- for such a Church is not following Christ in His mission. Perhaps, in a way, the "persecutions" the East faces from Rome have replaced the persecutions that used to be inflicted on us from outside. Should we not continue to seek theosis in spite of pain and suffering? In fact, is it not the pain and suffering that brings us to that very process of theosis?

Just some rather random thoughts...

Edward, deacon and sinner

#39947 05/15/03 09:19 AM
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Dear Athanasius,

First of all, happy (Julian Calendar) Feast of St Athanasius of Alexandria, St Athanasius of Svir and St Athanasius of Lubno!

(Great things come in three's, no? wink )

A fair question, to be sure!

There are both theological and non-theological aspects to a response.

The latter would involve me being born into a Church that involves me not only theologically, but culturally as well.

The UGCC started out in 1596 as a "traitor" group until some centuries later it became the "national church" of Galicia. The national-cultural factor was a siginificant one that led to this Church's rebirth and reestablishment following the fall of the Soviet Union.

So for my identity as a Ukrainian Canadian, what is "ours" is also "our UGCC."

But our Ukrainian Orthodox Churches are likewise part of that and I embrace my brothers and sisters there as well - we have the same traditions, blah, blah, blah! smile

And, for the life of me, I don't really see a doctrinal difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism - liturgical etc. yes, but doctrinal that would justify the separation of the Churches? Not a bit, save for the papal issue that I see as an administrative one, since Orthodoxy also gives the Pope a primacy of honour etc.

As a member of the patriarchalist movement in our Church, I too am painfully aware of the politics and difficulties our EC Churches face with respect to Roman jursdictional control.

These are exacerbated when our Rome-grown bishops fail to unite on the basis of a consistent, Particularist foundation of church government, as we know.

But this can change and we struggle on.

And how is the situation any different for our people when they were, and many still are, under the Moscow Patriarchate? The MP can be quite papal in his own Rite smile .

But that doesn't mean my relatives curse the MP - they are quite zealous about defending him as a matter of fact, as I am when it comes to defending my Pope.

He is my Pope first and he is everyone else's afterwards. I love him to bits.

So when I critique the Vatican or Cardinals or Secretariats, I critique the government of the Catholic Church with respect to us.

I leave the Pope out of that, however.

Yes, we can go to an Orthodox jurisdiction to avoid struggle or because we feel we shouldn't have to struggle as Eastern Christians.

There are struggles in Orthodox Churches as well and when I see some of our Orthodox colleagues who seem to contrast our struggles with the "bliss of Orthodoxy" in this respect, I think they are not being completely honest.

Or else they are just not that involved with their own Church.

We know that the Unia is not the final word on our Churches' status and that we are meant to be reunited to our Mother Orthodox Churches within a broader framework of unity with all five historic Patriarchates.

God will achieve that in His way, not ours.

I pray for that to happen soon and I trust God that it will.

Alex

#39948 05/15/03 09:20 AM
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Dear Fr. Deacon Ed and UC,

How is it that you guys came in to respond to a question addressed exclusively to me? smile

Got nothing better to do with your time this morning? smile

Alex

#39949 05/15/03 09:30 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
A fair question, to be sure!

Alex,
You are far nicer than I would have been if asked this question.

At best I would ignore it.

As we have discussed earlier....

It seems that this question gets asked of us Eastern Catholics way too much.

David

There's that nasty thumbs down again biggrin

#39950 05/15/03 09:40 AM
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Dear David,

Again, was Athanasius talking to you?

So don't sweat it, Big Guy! wink

Alex

#39951 05/15/03 09:45 AM
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Alex!

Christ is Risen!

Although sometimes I do think that you tend to overstate the similarities between Catholicism and Orthodoxy (personally, I got to the point where I could not honestly say that I was "Orthodox in Communion with Rome") , I admire very much your passion for the unity of the Churches and your deep love for the heritages of all traditions. That will always keep me reading your posts with great interest and appreciation as I'm sure others on this Forum do.
Your love for God and Church flow through your posts and that is the main thing!

#39952 05/15/03 10:06 AM
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Dear Brian,

I do love both Western and Eastern traditions.

And I believe that Christ intended for the two to be in union while maintaining the richness of their diversity.

Perhaps I'm too influenced by Canadian societal models of multiculturalism? smile

The two traditions are different in terms of the "interpretive" side.

They are ONE in terms of "pith and substance," as I tried to tell our Much-Suffering Brother, Brendan, on another thread.

I thank you, Brian, together with Brendan and Father Thomas for tolerating me.

I believe I say what, in this respect, is truly the Will of Christ for His Church.

Perhaps I need treatment, as Reader Andrew gently suggested . . . smile

Alex

#39953 05/15/03 10:09 AM
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We remain Eastern Catholics in communion with Rome because we hope we can truly be a bridge to unity. Although we have had problems in the past, we hope to correct these issues. If problems such as celibate priesthood or Patriarchal autonomy issues are not corrected, then we will not survive as Eastern Catholics.

Ung-Certez

p.s. David, I hope your avatar isn't kneeling, remember it is still Pascha! wink

#39954 05/15/03 10:10 AM
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>Perhaps I'm too influenced by Canadian societal models of multiculturalism?<

I think we could all benefit from this Alex. It's what has made our Canadian teachers here in Hellenic College of London such a breath of fresh air!!!

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

#39955 05/15/03 10:12 AM
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>p.s. David, I hope your avatar isn't kneeling, remember it is still Pascha!<

It must be an Old Believer avatar who's just chanted the nadoistoinik - prostration compulsory at all times and seasons!!!

#39956 05/15/03 10:28 AM
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Bless me a sinner, Father Mark,

I did my Ph.D. dissertation on multiculturalism and during my orals, I quoted Fr. Alexander Schmemann.

You could imagine the surprise when afterwards I received the comment that my quote of Schmemann should be included in the body of my written work as it provided a key interpretive paradigm to multiculturalism!

I knew I should have been a married mitred Archpriest with a jewelled Cross! smile smile

Alex

#39957 05/15/03 10:36 AM
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Schmemann... Ooooooh dear. I don't think he'd have much time for the Old Rite Orthodox, not with his views on 'popular piety'. I don't think German analytical techniques work on Old Believers. wink

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

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