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http://www.nbcnews.com/id/53395411

This is a very pretty little Church. It's a shame that the parishioners are dying off and no one is replacing them. I will bring this up with Bishop George. It would make a great Russian Orthodox mission parish in the east suburbs.

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This sounds like the future of my parish in Edinburgh. I hope not, but it reads almost the same. Sad end.

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Perhaps it's time for us to stop identifying so specifically as "Italo-Greeks" or "Ukrainian" or "Russian" or "Ruthenian" and just be known as Byzantine, instead of appearing so fragmented? It seems what afflicts the Orthodox in America also hampers us Byzantine Catholics.

Perhaps folks assumed only Ukrainians were meant to attend there? Sad either way.

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It seems that, to a degree, the Ruthenians have poisoned the well of Byzantine-rite Catholics being grouped together under that name as they have adopted that name for their particular Church while insisting on a uniformity of Ruthenian practice.

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Not sure of that. We have an italo-greek parish, in NV, under the eparchy of Phoenix. We also have a hermitage, using the Russian tradition, under the same eparchy.. I think slowly, but surely that uniformity will die off, in a way.

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It is time to introduce more about Byzantine Rite Catholicism. Explain that the Rite is used by some Particular Churches. And although the Name/Church is related to a particular ethnicity, it is a Global Church.

The RC has been well known. Its people came from many ethnicity, and the RC sent missionaries to almost all parts of the world, and they communicate it to all (remember the ads of that kind in TV). The Orthodox Churches follow the RC, and now they started to expand to Far East Asia.

The Eastern Catholic Churches are "unknown". And the members tend to comprise of a particular/limited group of ethnicity (or assumed to be). Then don't be surprise that people will assume that it is only for a particular/limited group. Although it is wrong, again we are dealing with image. The image will change if the Eastern Catholic Churches' demography change.

I had an experience when submitting my petition of Particular Church Change. The apostolic nuncio called me to meet him. He asked me why I'd like to join one of the Eastern Catholic Churches; do I know that the Church comprises mostly of the YYYY ethnicity. See, even a nuncio understand the Eastern Catholic Churches wrongly. L o l

Regarding the Byzantine Catholic name has been taken by Ruthenian. Again, it was an action that creating image. In my opinion, if you'd like, just use it. It will create confusion for some time, but after years or decades, image will be crystalised. Anyway, only people in America defining Byzantine Catholic with Ruthenians. Come to Philipines, Byzantine Catholic means Ukrainians Greek, and no Ukrainians (by blood line or ethnicity) in it since they are Pinoys (the Philipine people).

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Hello Lester,

I'm interested in learning more about the Russian Catholic hermitage. Where is it located? Thanks.

In Christ,
Anthony

Originally Posted by Lester S
Not sure of that. We have an italo-greek parish, in NV, under the eparchy of Phoenix. We also have a hermitage, using the Russian tradition, under the same eparchy.. I think slowly, but surely that uniformity will die off, in a way.

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Originally Posted by seraphion
The image will change if the Eastern Catholic Churches' demography change.

See my signature biggrin

Originally Posted by - Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory, Pastoral Letter, Christmas, 1972
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

Many years,

Neil

Last edited by Irish Melkite; 11/05/13 07:50 AM.

"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally Posted by seraphion
I had an experience when submitting my petition of Particular Church Change. The apostolic nuncio called me to meet him. He asked me why I'd like to join one of the Eastern Catholic Churches; do I know that the Church comprises mostly of the YYYY ethnicity. See, even a nuncio understand the Eastern Catholic Churches wrongly. L o l (emphasis added)

seraphion,

LOL, not trying to be a smart-aleck, but this ^ is not exactly a surprise to us biggrin

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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This is a glimpse of the future. Most Greek-Catholic and Orthodox Churches will be closing in the next 10 - 20 years. Only a fraction will be open after that. Most likely their buildings will become condos, gyms, or just torn down. Sad!


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Originally Posted by seraphion
Regarding the Byzantine Catholic name has been taken by Ruthenian. Again, it was an action that creating image. In my opinion, if you'd like, just use it. It will create confusion for some time, but after years or decades, image will be crystalised. Anyway, only people in America defining Byzantine Catholic with Ruthenians. Come to Philipines, Byzantine Catholic means Ukrainians Greek, and no Ukrainians (by blood line or ethnicity) in it since they are Pinoys (the Philipine people).

Agreed. These things aren't set in stone. And almost no one cares, for example, that the Latin Church is called "Roman" colloquially and semi-officially. And in other parts of the world it's called other things.

(In some ways it does matter, but that's a different topic.)

I don't have the answer here, but certainly there is one. If a parish's official name on the cornerstone is, for example, "St. Hierotheus Ukrainian Catholic Church" in Cyrillic and "St. Hierotheus Greek Catholic Church" in Latin letters, what's the real harm?

If you don't like "Greek" ... then "Byzantine," or whatever. Something that is not a nation-state. The concept should still be clear.

If having two names is good enough for St. Peter and so many other saints living between two cultures, then two names are good enough for our parishes.

There seems to have been some high-level discussion a few years ago about adopting the name "Kievan Catholic." This seems to be a pretty good middle-way. How many people would become Roman Catholic if they called themselves "Italian Catholic?" People would say, "I'm not Italian ... so that's not for me." Granted, I understand Rome is a little different, it looms large in western history, but again, the point should be taken.

Whatever the practical answer is, I don't think this will be solved until there is a serious and reasonably large minority that actually wants to convert people. It never has been and never will be a majority. But if you convince 20% of US ECs that their neighbors' souls actually matter, and that as Fr. Loya said (in different words) that the ECCs have precisely the spiritual medicine America needs, then all these problems of ethnicity will work themselves out.

Above all, prayer and fasting, prayer and fasting, for the conversion of the US to Eastern Catholicism, so far as it be God's will.

Last edited by Booth; 11/09/13 10:43 AM.
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And another thing ...

Is there not a very wide streak in the Eastern Church that actually delights in being "messy?"

We've all seen the bumper sticker, "Eastern Orthodoxy - disorganized religion at its finest." And many Eastern Catholics will pride themselves on being holistic and less forensic than Latins. The examples go on and on.

So it shouldn't make any of our heads explode if we are more messy and human and local in the ways we name, administer, and inculturate our parishes and jurisdictions.

Now this is not to go overboard with 1970s-style shenanigans or hasty decisions. But if my eparchy is truly, as the classic Eastern ecclesiology says, a full expression of the universal Church on its own, then if we had good cause to present ourselves as "Anglo-Greek Catholic in Union with Kiev," or whatever, then we darn well should be able to without causing mass spontaneous aneurysms.

Even better - "Amero-Kievan Agglikos Catholic." This game could get pretty silly (and fun), but I think it illustrates the point nicely.

In fact I am now jacked up on this "in union with Kiev" concept. If I was allowed to have a tagline, some version of this would make it there.

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Not sure Kievan Catholic makes any more sense. From the Orthodox side, those of us who were Rusyn or Ruthenian (Come to think of it, our Eastern Catholic relatives did so as well.) would refer to Russian Orthodox or Russianized Rusyns or Lemkos as "Muskovits" which was NOT intended as a generic compliment.


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