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I have a question that I'm presenting to you:



If you go to this video, you'll see lots of Evangelical Christians converting to Orthodoxy. Within the video, they explain that they were compelled to become Orthodox because they discovered that this was the early Church, from the apostles.

That's all good.. but why exclude Catholicism?? This is ALSO an Apostolic Church??

That bothers me.

I'm glad they discovered the importance of the Eucharist (FINALLY!) - and they see its part of our raison d'ĂȘtre, but why leave out being Catholic.

Hence - the title of my thread: We really need Ecumenical Unity more than ever. I would say the 1st step is that we have to recognise that we are BOTH from Apostolic Churches. We can't go around saying my church is better than yours. This is destructive.

Now, my Church IS better than yours - so how can we make yours good? lol (THAT WAS A JOKE!) - if you laughed, then you've gotten to know me.

Fear not - my Church is far from perfect. My suggestion is that the Catholic Church really ought to embrace , as its entire identity, the Byzantine Rite. Everyone else (Charismatic Catholics, Party-During-Liturgy Catholics etc) - they should be excommunicated from your Church.

If the EO, Catholics, OO were ALL to admit that each of us originated from the Apostles, the early Church; that statement of truth would bring back many evangelicals. They are lost. They WANT to go back to the way things were.

Regardless, why weren't these deacons interested in the Catholic church? That's very surprising.

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Thanos,

Since you are in Europe, you may be unaware that many more evangelicals have become Roman Catholic than Orthodox in the English speaking world. It does not make the same kind of news as that to which you refer because they are merely changing from one form of Western Christianity to another. For many it resolves issues of authority, doctrine and spirituality which can exist in more of a vacuum in Protestantism.

Speaking as one who is canonically Greek Catholic, spent most of my religious observance in Roman Catholic circles and who now attends Orthodox services, I can see the attraction Orthodoxy has for evangelicals. There is a more immediate link to the early Church because the East had fewer outside influences to deviate her away from its ancient flavour, (i.e. feudalism, the Reformation, liberal democracy, the development of science). Rome with each challenge underwent accretion on top of accretion with each challenge met - were it not for a Magisterium she would be lost. So as one who seriously leans towards Orthodoxy, I believe that at heart she is really Orthodox, just that her popular expression lost the thread of things, as it were.

Shouldn't we be cautious about who determines who is and who is not Catholic, short of legitimate authority. That is dangerous ground to stand on. As Christ said to Peter in John XXI, "...what is that to you, you follow Me." The Orthodox have problems too, and evangelicals who convert can be an argumentative bunch. We all always have need of repentance. One thing, however, one can learn from the East is more docility to the Holy Spirit.

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I can't help but feel that there is a real latent anti-Catholicism there in some of these folks. Remember, Evangelicalism is a broad name that includes people like John MacArthur, Gary North, etc.

If any of these Evangelicals find the Apostolic Church attractive, besides snowing in hell, I would bet that they will gravitate to the Orthodox Church.

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The Protestants I know who converted to Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism seem to have made the move because of the impoverished liturgy and theology of the modern Roman Church. They found Orthodoxy to be more complete and spiritually fulfilling. As a former Lutheran I know explained to me a few years ago, "Why would I want to go to a Catholic parish where the liturgy is not celebrated as well as it was in the Lutheran community I used to attend?"

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Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
I can't help but feel that there is a real latent anti-Catholicism there in some of these folks. Remember, Evangelicalism is a broad name that includes people like John MacArthur, Gary North, etc.

If any of these Evangelicals find the Apostolic Church attractive, besides snowing in hell, I would bet that they will gravitate to the Orthodox Church.
Hmmm? You make a mention of "anti-Catholicism"....and then you make what seems to be a rather anti-Orthodox Statement. As already mentioned....the Holy Orthodox Church has a Liturgy and theology that has not been impoverished. And I could name about three dozen other factors that might attract an Evangelical Christian to the Holy Orthodox Church. wink

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Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
I can't help but feel that there is a real latent anti-Catholicism there in some of these folks. Remember, Evangelicalism is a broad name that includes people like John MacArthur, Gary North, etc.

If any of these Evangelicals find the Apostolic Church attractive, besides snowing in hell, I would bet that they will gravitate to the Orthodox Church.
Hmmm? You make a mention of "anti-Catholicism"....and then you make what seems to be a rather anti-Orthodox Statement. As already mentioned....the Holy Orthodox Church has a Liturgy and theology that has not been impoverished. And I could name about three dozen other factors that might attract an Evangelical Christian to the Holy Orthodox Church. wink

I'm sorry. It was not meant to be an "anti-Orthodox" statement. I was just trying to say that for many Evangelicals, the animus against the Roman Catholic Church is so deep that they will pick the Apostolic Faith of the East rather than the West. It's a very hard bias to overcome.

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Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
I was just trying to say that for many Evangelicals, the animus against the Roman Catholic Church is so deep that they will pick the Apostolic Faith of the East rather than the West. It's a very hard bias to overcome.

Really? Perhaps this is primarily in cyberspace? I know many Evangelicals who converted to Holy Orthodoxy and did not bring any type of bias or vitriol with them. There is much in common theologically between the Orthodox Church and the Latin/Eastern Catholics: Praying for the dead, Veneration of the most Holy Theotokos and the saints, the Real Presence of Christ in the holy Eucharist, the Mysteries of the Church, Holy Tradition, etc., etc......

I would think that those who might have an axe to grind with Catholicism....might grind the same axe with Holy Orthodoxy.

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Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
I was just trying to say that for many Evangelicals, the animus against the Roman Catholic Church is so deep that they will pick the Apostolic Faith of the East rather than the West. It's a very hard bias to overcome.

Really? Perhaps this is primarily in cyberspace? I know many Evangelicals who converted to Holy Orthodoxy and did not bring any type of bias or vitriol with them. There is much in common theologically between the Orthodox Church and the Latin/Eastern Catholics: Praying for the dead, Veneration of the most Holy Theotokos and the saints, the Real Presence of Christ in the holy Eucharist, the Mysteries of the Church, Holy Tradition, etc., etc......

I would think that those who might have an axe to grind with Catholicism....might grind the same axe with Holy Orthodoxy.

Think Frankie Schaeffer. That kind of Evangelical.

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Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Think Frankie Schaeffer. That kind of Evangelical.

"Frankie," as you so affectionately call him, can tend to ruffle feathers....on both sides of the aisle.

You are basing your premise on Frank Schaeffer?

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Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Think Frankie Schaeffer. That kind of Evangelical.

"Frankie," as you so affectionately call him, can tend to ruffle feathers....on both sides of the aisle.

You are basing your premise on Frank Schaeffer?

"Frankie" is the name that he used as a Presbyterian. Don't get snippy with me until you've been in the PCA like I was.

As for the other -- no, it's not. I've met some others who were equally dismissive of Rome. Some who, in fact, when we started acting like Rome in our Liturgical Praxis, left the Byzantine parish they were attending in utter disgust and are now happily OCA.

I've also read a few such diatribes on the Internet.

Granted, not all Orthodox are of such a mind, but it would do well do realize that there are those out there who have a suspicious regard of the Roman Church, especially after what it did to the Byzantines in America for about 50 years!!!

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Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
"Frankie" is the name that he used as a Presbyterian.
Does he still go by "Frankie?"

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Don't get snippy with me until you've been in the PCA like I was.
I do not need to be in the PCA to have an understanding of their theology...I have studied it a bit.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
I've met some others who were equally dismissive of Rome.
Well...yes...of course.....you can find millions of people who are dismissive of Rome. But it is unfair for you to paint with a broad stroke, those Evangelicals who chose Holy Orthodoxy over Rome.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Some who, in fact, when we started acting like Rome in our Liturgical Praxis, left the Byzantine parish they were attending in utter disgust and are now happily OCA.
I left the Byzantine Catholic Church over my eventual disagreement with doctrine (filioque, papal infallibility, etc). The final straw was the gender neutered Liturgical reform. But I am not anti-Catholic. If I said that protestants who convert to the Catholic Church (like yourself) are very quick to pull the "anti-Catholic" card.....I would be painting with broad strokes.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
I've also read a few such diatribes on the Internet.
The internet is full of diatribes, my friend.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Granted, not all Orthodox are of such a mind, but it would do well do realize that there are those out there who have a suspicious regard of the Roman Church, especially after what it did to the Byzantines in America for about 50 years!!!
One can always find a batch of sour grapes.

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Quote
I left the Byzantine Catholic Church over my eventual disagreement with doctrine (filioque, papal infallibility, etc). The final straw was the gender neutered Liturgical reform. But I am not anti-Catholic. If I said that protestants who convert to the Catholic Church (like yourself) are very quick to pull the "anti-Catholic" card.....I would be painting with broad strokes.

You don't happen to live in Pennsylvania by any chance, do you?

It was a very sad day for me to look around and no longer see friends whom I held dear in my heart because they couldn't stomach the issues that you mentioned.

Yes, I do tend to use a Number 12 size brush when making statements. One of my many faults.

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Guys,

My point is this: I am REALLY upset that they've become Orthodox for the reason that they've discovered the Apostolic lineage has continued in the Orthodox Church without considering that it has also continued in the Catholic.

It has - I would just say it has continued in the Byzantine Rite.

A lot of people want to feel they are living the Christian life according to what it was like at the beginning.

I agree about the Filoque etc.. these dogmas were added - and subsequently caused more division than what they were worth. I do not subscribe to these dogmas, hence why my faith is Orthodox, yet I am still fond of the Catholic.

You see why I'm saying we need to unite?

Catholics admitting that Orthodox are apostolic, it will help bring protestants BACK to either the Catholic OR the Orthodox. Instead, Catholics are going around saying that the only true Church is theirs. Protestants look at the Catholic Church as some political establishment with a very dubious past just make them more inclined to be protestant.

The Orthodox Churches are apostolic and do not enter / or have ever entered into Politics to be tainted by power (well, at least NOT the Coptic Orthodox!).


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Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
I can't help but feel that there is a real latent anti-Catholicism there in some of these folks. Remember, Evangelicalism is a broad name that includes people like John MacArthur, Gary North, etc.

If any of these Evangelicals find the Apostolic Church attractive, besides snowing in hell, I would bet that they will gravitate to the Orthodox Church.
Hmmm? You make a mention of "anti-Catholicism"....and then you make what seems to be a rather anti-Orthodox Statement. As already mentioned....the Holy Orthodox Church has a Liturgy and theology that has not been impoverished. And I could name about three dozen other factors that might attract an Evangelical Christian to the Holy Orthodox Church. wink
I'm sorry. It was not meant to be an "anti-Orthodox" statement. I was just trying to say that for many Evangelicals, the animus against the Roman Catholic Church is so deep that they will pick the Apostolic Faith of the East rather than the West. It's a very hard bias to overcome.
I don't see anything anti-Orthodox in your original post, but I do see an inaccurate and stereotypical statement: "If any of these Evangelicals find the Apostolic Church attractive, besides snowing in hell, I would bet that they will gravitate to the Orthodox Church." I don't know what your personal experience has been like, but there are a lot of Catholics who used to be Evangelical.

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Originally Posted by Thanos888
I have a question that I'm presenting to you:



If you go to this video, you'll see lots of Evangelical Christians converting to Orthodoxy. Within the video, they explain that they were compelled to become Orthodox because they discovered that this was the early Church, from the apostles.

That's all good.. but why exclude Catholicism??

Why indeed? frown I haven't seen that particular video, but I know what you mean. I've also seen the reverse attitude -- as a matter of fact, I believe Archbishop Haverland (then a Continuing Anglican archbishop, I don't know whether he still is) actually made a statement like "With regard to unity, all Anglicans should first think of Rome" (I don't recall the exact words). :rolleyes:

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