www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy Latinisation?

Welcome to the forum!

To directly address your question, we (Eastern and Oriental Christians, Catholic and Orthodox, as well as most non-Eastern members posting here, typically understand 'latinization' to mean the incorporation, either forced or self-imposed, of Latin praxis into our spiritual life.

The reference may be to any of myriad aspects of that spirituality. Some examples: the form of the Eucharist (unleavened hosts vs prosphora); liturgical praxis (e.g., celebration versus populum vs ad Orientum); liturgical language (inclusion of the filioque in the Creed vs exclusion of it); liturgical furnishings (e.g., pews vs no pews); liturgical vesture (chasuble vs phelon); liturgical calendar (Ash Wednesday vs Clean Monday); liturgical accoutrements (e.g., communion patens vs communion cloths); liturgical vessels (e.g., paten vs footed diskos); prayer (e.g., communal recitation of the Rosary vs recitation of the Hours); clerical dress (e.g., birettas vs skoufia); clerical styling/honorifics (e.g., Monsignor vs Archimandrite); liturgical 'art' (for lack of a better term) (e.g., statuary vs iconography); terminology (e.g., Mass vs Divine Liturgy); patronage (e.g., Assumption of the Blessed Mother parish vs Dormition of the Theotokos parish); aspects of the Mysteries (e.g., First Holy Communion and Confirmation vs infant Chrismation and Communion). Not all differences apply to all Churches, but that's a pretty representative catalogue. There are a myriad of other instances.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you for clarifying what "Latinisation" means Irish Melkite. I found your response very helpful and I believe your reply helped the topic thread in general.

Through my Liturgical Studies, both academic and experiential, many of the differences have come about due to how the basic elements of the Divine Liturgy/Holy Mass became adopted to local differences. The patan being raised in the Greek Rites, while in the Roman Rite it remained in its primitive form. The Chasuble and The Greek One (I forgot the exact name) came from the same Roman Penula (Rain Coat) and was beautified, shaped, and ornamented according to local custom. The Stole and the Orarion are from the Roman Republic and Senate. The point I am making is that much of our Liturgical elements have a common ancestor and have some origin in the Greco/Roman culture of the Roman Empire. When Latinisation is used, I believe that hard feelings toward Rome could be alleviated by understanding our common past.

Sean,

I think you need to understand that latinization is not a good thing and 'hard feelings' about it have a well-founded basis and history that is little alleviated by looking to find commonalities of origin. This is not about objecting to differences, it is about being coerced to adopt such. Liturgical studies are unlikely to have addressed that - because it could hardly be deemed 'developmental'.

Rather, you need to expand on your knowledge of the history of Eastern Christianity in the New World, where Latin supremacy served as a means to legitimize religious bigotry, paternalism, and the grafting of all manner of Latin praxis onto Eastern Catholicism - causing thousands of Eastern Catholics, clergy, laity, whole parishes, to translate to Orthodoxy.

In listing examples of latinization above, did I forget to mention priestly celibacy vs married presbyters?

Many years,

Neil

Sean,

The resurrection of the Eastern Churches after Vatican II is much the reason that we have tried to re-adopt proper liturgical, theological and practical Eastern Church practices.
From the time of communion in the 16th century though the mid 20th century, the Roman Church has perceived the Eastern Catholics as "cute" but inferior to the great Western Roman Church of power and glory. Vatican II changed that when it declared the Eastern Catholic Churches as equal in dignity as Sui Iuris churches. Rome and the Roman bishops have been trying to live up to this declaration, but it is difficult to change a mindset that has existed for centuries.

We are trying to help them to understand this equal dignity that is inborn as granted by Christ as head of the Church and it's Mother Mary. The Universal Church is a variety of Churches with Pope, Patriarchs, Primates, Metropolitans and bishops whose unity is in synodal communion and a common agreements of the validity of the Sacraments (Mysteries.)

I'm not a theologion, so if I slighted proper ecclesiastic-ism please be understanding.

Father Deacon Paul

Well put, Deacon Paul!

Many years,

Neil

To All:

I have great respect and knowledge of Easter Christianity. My posts were only to express my deep love of our shared past. By no means did I intend to belittle the subject; I had only good-will in my heart. I would not be a bi-Ritual Catholic if I did not love, know, and respect the Eastern Rites. Please, extend to me the same good-will that I have for this forum as well as the Eastern Rites.

Yes, I know about many Western Rite bishops and their tried-domination over Eastern Rite Catholics, especially in the US, but this happened in between Vatican I and Vatican II. For the most part these bishops were either Irish of Polish, and did not fully understand what they were doin. At the start of Vatican I all Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs were present and processed in according to the ranking of patriarchates in the Canon of Chalcedon. Well before Vatican II (The Eastern Patriarchs were not processed in according to Chalcedon at the start of Vatican II) there were many kind gestures the Popes made to Eastern Patriarchs; the meeting of Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athanagorus I and their mutual embrace was made possible by long dialogue between the West and the East.

God-willing if I become a priest, I will god-willing become a bi-Ritual priest to serve the Eastern Christians in places where having a priest of their own rite is difficult. A few weeks ago I designed a multi-ritual sanctuary, which I hope to have built. The name of the Church will be Sts. Gregory I and John Chysostom multi-ritual Catholic Church, where all Eastern Rite Catholics will be welcome to have their respective Rites celebrated. I really want Western and Eastern Catholics to understand each other and experience each other's rich liturgical, theological, spiritual, and historical traditions. In my opinion I believe that the Catholic Church must breathe with both lunges everywhere. May many more Eastern Catholics influence Western Catholics, as for me I love a cherish both.


All my love and gratitude in Christ;
Sean Forristal

Sean,

I don't intend to come across as argumentative, but your history is more than a bit off. Other than those who were Irish or of Irish descent, the bishops involved in the early 20th century conflicts with Eastern Catholics were primarily German or of German descent, not Polish. (There were no hierarchs of Polish ethnicity in the US at the time of the earliest disputes and I'm not certain that there were any even by the 1930s.)

And it would be more than a kindness to suggest that the bishops primarily responsible didn't know what they were doing. They were exercising religious, cultural, and ethnic bigotry, to put the best face to it.

With few exceptions, they saw married clergy, infant communion, iconostases, liturgical services in languages other than Latin, and any other mark of distinction between Eastern and Latin Catholics as threatening to American 'acceptance' of Catholics and Catholicism - making Catholics that much 'less American' and that much 'more foreign'.

The heresy is known as 'Americanism' and though condemned (for other reasons) by popes, it thrived long enough that, well before VII, most Eastern and Oriental Catholics in the US were worshiping in settings and according to a praxis that was indeed 'foreign' - foreign to their own religious heritage. 'Kind gestures' from afar did nothing for what transpired in those decades.

By the time some more enlightened Latin hierarchs, such as Archbishop Richard Cushing, of blessed memory, Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen, and some others came along, the damage was already done. They stood staunchly by and assisted us, and we gratefully hold them in our memory - but, it wasn't until post-Vatican II that we could really begin to recoup our heritage. It's been a half-century long struggle and our Churches still lack much of the autonomy that is theoretically ascribed to them by the phrase sui iuris.

I'll presume that your reference to patriarchal attendance at Vatican I was meant to be to Catholic patriarchs - Eastern/ Oriental and Latin. To the best of my knowledge, no Eastern Orthodox patriarch was present at that Council.

Additionally, it would be best not to cite patriarchs being given a modicum of processional precedence at Vatican I as an example of papal solicitude toward the East. Any such statement rings hollow in consideration of Pius IX's foot resting on the head or neck of the His Beatitude +Gregory II Youssef, Patriarch of Antioch and All the East, of Alexandria, and Jerusalem of the Melkites, after he was thrown to the floor at the Pope's feet by a papal guard. The reason? He departed Rome without assenting to the declaration of papal infallibility and, when he subsequently subscribed, prefaced his signature by the phrase "excepting all the rights, privileges, and prerogatives of the patriarchs".

Many years,

Neil

Irish Melkite:

I do not know why you keep harassing me. Yes, I do understand that some of the greatest persecutors of Eastern Rite Catholics were of German descent. Venerable Fulton Sheen did do much to help the situation, but there were many Irish bishops that did persecute Eastern Rite Catholics. Having married priests of the Eastern Rite was probably very confusing for Western Catholics and Clergy of the time. The secular media constantly uses today the Eastern Rite Priests as ammo to destroy mandatory priestly celibacy for Western Rite Priests; thus, this matter is very delicate.

The problem that we seem to be having is a matter of historical correctness, but without mutual respect for each other's learning. You should know that Eastern Rite Catholics were harassed by Polish Clergy, sometimes on account of communism. In a Liberal book "The Rhine Flows into the Tiber" many Orthodox Patriarchs were offended by not giving them their proper, anciently held by the West, place in the opening procession of Vatican II; The Council of Trent made sure this was kept as well. I do not know where you read of the mistreatment of Eastern or Orthodox Hierarchy during Vatican I and I am sure that Pope Bl. Pius IX would not be on the way to canonization if this was known. Your history of Vatican I seems quite a bit different then the current Catholic Church's understanding of it. Moreover, Pope Bl. John XXIII was a great model of Eastern-Western dialogue even before becoming a Pope.

"Sui Iuris" does not mean that Eastern Churches can operate entirely on their own without Papal approval of the Ordination of a Bishop. Nor does it mean that Eastern Churches can have theology that contradicts the Magisterium of the Church. All Institutes of Consecrated Life of Pontifical Rite are given the status of "Sui Iuris," as well as a few Personal Prelatures and Ordinariates. "Sui Iuris," simply means that a particular part of the Catholic Church is able to be free of the intrusion of the Local Ordinary, and that it is directly under the Pope and the Roman Curia. Understanding "Sui Iuris" as complete autonomy from the Pope or his representatives is not correct.

I am not trying to defend all of the actions of the Western Church against the Eastern Churches, but rather to add a little more information to the subject. In many ways I am trying to be a source of unity here as I have studied much about the Church and am only trying to add more information. Peace to you and your family, brother in Christ and may the Blessings of God descend upon you all.

Your unworthy brother in Christ;
Sean Forristal

Also, I am sure that the use of "religious bigotry" is a little excessive. This sentiment may be a little harsh, but would probably be better understood as a lack of understanding of the Easter Rite Churches. When talking to Orthodox Priests and after they hear I am a Roman Catholic, but bi-Ritual, they usually treat me with disdain, but they are shocked when I ask them to bless me. They also comment that Rome will have to come to their point-of-view and that they will never accept Papal Authority. I think both the Western and Eastern Churches are to blame for the constant source of mis-understanding, hatred, and animosity. Let us work together against the devil in this forum, who seems to bring unkindness and animosity between us.

Sean

Exactly what do you mean by ' bi-ritual ' as applied to a lay person ?

As a Latin Catholic there is nothing that stops you worshipping in any Church that is in Communion with Rome - you would be welcome in my Parish , even though it is possible you would struggle with the language - we are not bi-lingual.

I'm friends [ not FB Friends , but friends in real life ] with some Orthodox Priests and am welcome in their Churches - I make no bones about it and introduce myself at the beginning as Catholic - specifically Greek Catholic and have never been treated with disdain .

As to where you get this from goodness only knows - there is no devil in this Community - but there is love between us all ,and incredible support to a member with any problems.

Perhaps after you have been among us for a while you will understand better.

Now we all , Eastern Catholic and Orthodox , have entered the Great Fast , and our Latin Catholic members will enter it on Wednesday , it would be as well if we all review the Prayer of St Ephrem and meditate upon it

In your quest for more information, allow me these comments; not at all as antagonism, but as background for your quest to know the East and its sensitivity to being observed merely as "cute."

First, I don't see how Neil has "harassed" you at all. You commented, he replied. That you may not have liked his answer is not harassment. But that is forgotten, so let's move on with more background. Please don't consider background information as "hatred" or "bitterness", for it is what it is.

Where you live you may not see many people whose ancestors were Slav or Italian, so you may not get a full perception, so please try to understand.

It is a fact that immigrants from Sicily, disparagingly called "wops" and "greasers" by previously settled "loyal Americans" and "good Catholics," were Italo-Greek Byzantines. They were not accepted by most RC Bishops and the bishops appealed and complained to Rome until Rome actually banned the Italo-Greek Church in the United States. Then came the Polish, the bishops didn't like them either, nor their priests, but they had to tolerate them because they were Roman Catholic. Their mistreatment cause many Polish communities to accept the Polish National Church.

About the same time the slavic immigrants came. By that time Rome knew they made a mistake by banning the Italo-Greek Church so they allowed the Greek Catholics to exist and for priests to be sent from Europe, but with restrictions. Many Roman Catholics bishops, especially Bishop Ireland, still complained and protested and harrassed.

So our ancestors suffered much for their Faith; if we didn't recognize this we would be an ungrateful lot. It would be like the Church saying to the Early Church martyrs "all you had to do to be accepted was to bow to the Roman statues."

This may not make sense to you.....maybe some day you will understand.

May you have a fruitful and blessed Great Fast.
Your brother in Christ,
Father Deacon Paul

Dear Father Deacon Paul:

As a devoted Roman Catholic while growing up in the secular school environment I know what it is like to be persecuted. Two of my teachers singled me out in class for my beliefs, one taking me out of a discussion on abortion, the other giving me a lesser grade on a paper because I disagreed with his neo-spiritualistic and naturalism. I have even been persecuted by Roman Catholic priests for my piety and liturgical accuracy. Thus, I am well acquainted with persecution and do "understand."

My ancestors of German and German Jewish Roman Catholic descent were persecuted by the KKK and others during WWII. The Irish priests had great disdain for the German immigrants too. Both of my grandmothers were harassed because they spoke German. But fortunately, they kept the Faith and built beautiful churches in Kansas.

Thank you for information regarding the Italo-Greek Catholic Church. Many bishops in the US have been less that holy in their treatment of people, even Catholics, from origins not of their own. If it was not the Irish Catholics fighting with the Italian Catholics, it was German Catholics fighting with the Polish Catholics. A former friend grew up in an Italian neighborhood in Paterson, NJ and he related these same stories to me. All of these occurrences are horrible.

I do not believe in Latinizing the Eastern Catholic Churches, but I do believe that Eastern Catholic Churches have much to offer Roman Catholic Churches, especially in regard to the Sacred Liturgy. Eastern Catholicism is not simply cute, for the past two years during the Great Fast, I did not eat meat, poultry, seafood, dairy, or oil, namely the full fast. This fast is intense and difficult and not for the faint of heart. You may find it interesting to know that my Vulga-German relatives did this even being Roman Catholics. No Eastern Catholicism is not "cute," but when lived well it is full of joy and beauty as I have experienced.

Your simile was a little bit extreme. The Roman bishops were not trying to make you commit idolatry, but were very wrong anyway. Have a blessed Great Fast and pray for me for the same.

Your unworthy brother in Christ;
Sean Forristal

Just my 2 cents. I fled the "Latin" Church, partly because they threw away Latin, but mostly because the liturgical changes to the Latin Rite after Vatican II (and in disobedience to Vatican II's document of the Liturgy in many cases) combined with the mea culpa "ecumenism" of John Paul II, really seems to me to amount to a new religion entirely. If I had not found the Byzantine Church I wouldn't be a Catholic today. The integrity and the beauty of the Liturgy was the perfect antidote for the Novus Ordo blues.

The Ukrainian Catholics in my area have a sort of "low Mass" on Saturday afternoon, anticipating Sunday, that is the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom spoken as rapidly as possible in English. This Saturday anticipation and the quick spoken Liturgy are real examples of modern day latinization. Although I came to the Byzantine Church in the 1990s and do not know what changes had occurred before, there doesn't seem to be much latinization IMHO.

Would some kind soul out there in cyberspace please found a forum "By the Waters of Babylon" for all Roman Refugees and such like who insist on infecting our site with toxic Latinophrone claptrap. Please! Rudyard Kipling was oh-so-right, "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet." And for this grouchy old man 'never' is too soon for me!

Ot'ets Nastoiatel':

What do you mean by Latinophrone claptrap; it sounds very funny.:)

As for a Divine Liturgy Low Mass, I am surprised that this is tolerated by the congregation. This example I would agree is a Latinization. A Latinization I hate is the constant tweaking of the Rules of the Great Fast in Eastern Catholicism. I have done the full fast and it had immeasurably great impacts on my spiritual life. Many Ex. Form Roman Catholics did attend Byzantine Catholic churches to keep their sanity and sanctity; thus, in my experience many EF Roman Catholics have a great love for Byzantine Catholicism, some still go to both places as I have experienced.