www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Reality of Hell

I ran across this site: http://www.divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

So many times we forget about Hell but it is very real.

I think that what Blessed Faustina saw is very much in line with the justice and the mercy of God. I notice that it is not God who tortures the poor damned souls in Hell, for He would gladly sve them if He but could. Indeed, He went as far as to go to the Cross and suffer unspeakable sufferings that none might be lost, if only they desired.

The sufferings of the damned are brought about by themselves and upon themselves!

1. They are without God. In this life they wanted NOTHING to do with Him. The pleas of family and friends fell on deaf ears. They preferred the momentary pleasures of wickedness to the knowledge of Christ. They shunned anything to do with the Church or the Sacraments. Indeed, many even went as far as to persecute the Church. And now they have exactly what they wished for here on earth, a place without any presence of God whatsoever. And would not this earth itself become a barren hell without the ever present mercy of our God.

2. The pangs of conscience. Oh what a torment. How many times have you and I suffered over some ill thought out decision, especially that of sin where afterwards we lamented listening to the evil one and giving ourselves over to evil. And how much more if our decision results in some destruction of our temporal happiness! How much more then those who made decision after decision to turn from God in this life. Now for all eternity they must remember that it was THEIR OWN HAND which has brought them to this terrible end!!

3. But in this life, even if we have made a terribel decision resulting in disasterous consequences, we may be able to bear those consequences by the hope that one day things might change for the better, that some mercy from God or man may alleviate our suffering. Not so in hell. What a torment is added to the damned by the knowledge that their torment shall never end.

4. This fire is the very presence of God Himself, for Scripture says that He is a consuming fire and that He is everywhere. Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. His love is a consuming fire. To those who have died in the friendship and love of God, it is purifying and refreshing, but to those who desire it not, it is a constant torment, as the sunlight which melts the candle.

5. No doubt that the presence of other sinners will but add to the torment of being in this place of darkness. We know of the phenomenon of "black holes" in space. There is a light from God which apparently is darkness to the wicked, for they can neither see in it nor understand.

6. I have no doubt that the evil one will constantly torment the damned, leering over them in his victory, gloating that he was able to get them to both listen to him and join him in his eternal perdition. And what greater torment is there than to be in the presence of one who has caused you great harm and delights in the fact that he has done such to you?

7. Hatred of God. The condition of the soul is horribly fixed while here on earth, and desparate is the plight of those who cannot repent, for the hatred which they have of God as a mere seed here on earth shall come into full and horrible bloom in eternity. In eternity, the masks are stripped from the soul and the real person is seen. Those who have hated our Lord here on earth will find His presence tormenting, His name a calumy to them, the very memory of anything of God a torment, and the inability to change a despair.

Notice then that every one of these conditions is not of God's vengence, but of His justice, for He gives to each soul what we have earned on earth by what we have done with His free gift of salvation. Those who reject it reject Him also. Those who come to Him shall find Him most merciful.

Let us pray (especially me) that our path is filled with light, our prayers honest and true, our hearts not deceitful, and our journey filled with His grace that we may indeed have "a good answer in the great and fearful Day of His Judgment" and not fall away to be lost forever.

Let us pray for mercy upon all souls, especially those of our loved ones.

Brother Ed

Of course, on these visions, the Church does not make a ruling on whether they should be believed or not. The Eastern Church has traditionally been sceptical of visions and private revelations.
I find Sister Faustina's outlook to be very Latin in orientation and not really applicable to the Eastern Christian Church.

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear comrades:

Saint Faustina's Divine Mercy devotions and p. revelations come from a Latin understanding of theology and are really not relevant to us doctrinally or for that matter spiritually because the devotion is Latin. It's good that God has seen fit to produce things of this sort for the Roman Catholic Church, but we must never forget the miracles that happen in the Eastern Church both Catholic and Orthodox. And we must never forget that being Eastern is a full time thing not part time. We have an ocean of stuff to re-integrate into our lives as Eastern Christians from our Tradition that have either been lost or shelved because we wanted to be like the Latins; so lets keep our eyes oriented tward the East.

Lest my remarks be mis-construed. Latin customs and devotions are great! They belong to Latin Catholics. But it is hard enough being Eastern living in a Latin Majority Context; it is so easy for us to create a hybrid spirituality; witness of our validity as an Eastern Church starts from the ground up and from the top down we must do our part with the clergy to restore our Eastern Christian civilization. Ok. Cool:)

In the Theanthropos:


Rob

Thank you Robert and Brian for the above posts.

I couldn't agree with you more!

Christos Voskrese! Christ is Risen!
Stefan-Ivan

Dear Brian, Robert and Stefan-Ivan:

I would be interested in hearing exactly what it is about Sr. Faustina's outlook, that you find to be specifically Latin in orientation - inapplicable or irrelevant to Eastern Christians. Is there an issue of substance, or just Romophobia?

I started this thread not to talk about St. F. Divine Mercy but about the realities of Hell. Hence the title of the thread. Hell is real. We do not talk about it much and I think we should have a thread on it.

Who is going to Hell? What is Hell like? What have our Church Fathers said about Hell? Etc...

Hell exists, who is there or what it consists of is a mystery. That's all we know. We are not even required to believe that anyone is there. Moe

You won't find a whole lot on hell from the Church fathers. They understood the idea of the Pantocrator, the all-powerful and just judge. They understood that there is a way of life or a way of death which a person choses and upon which travels into eternity. The Fathers realized that there is eternity, but took a more mystical and less analytical or determinative approach as to the ultimate outcome, leaving that up to He who will sit ultimately in judgement.

As to the answer to the first two questions, who and what it is like, it is not for us as Eastern Christians to presume to understand who or how many will be in hell, what is consists of, but to recognize that those matters are for The Judge to decide. For our part we should choose the way of life, stand in trembling and awe before our Lord every day, asking for mercy and move ever closer to uniting ourselves to God and our ultimate goal of theosis.

Christos Voskrese!

Romophobia? Fear of Latinization? Not likely.
Eastern Christians who are for restoration have many times on this forum brought out the idea Latins may construe wrongly that by rejecting their traditions in our Church and in our personal rule we are being arrogant and prideful and anti-Rome. But in truth we are being most faithful to the Holy See in working toward our full resotration as per the Second Vatican Council and our Holy Father. For as the Church has stated before our restoration as a full and authentic Eastern Church is wrapped up in the post-Conciliar Church's vision of a whole and real Catholicity; which is geared toward the full end of restoring communion with the Eastern Churches not in union. So obviosly accusations of "Romophobia (sic)" are another display of ignorance on the part of individuals that are not on board with or understand the program of restoration for our Byzantine Catholic Church and Her history of being a kind of hybridized ecclesial community as per, again, Latinizations.

Now, regarding hell. The Eastern vision of the human person in relation to God's mercy is well known. Although many saints of the Eastern Church have emphasized the justice of God, it is not justice in the classical Roman sense of the word. Justice in the eastern context is the application and work of the Divine Physician through the Church and ultimately on the day of Judgement. So in the East we have a medicinal view of God's justice and in the west a classically Roman juridical view of His justice.
In the East you will find many of our Fathers even believing in universal salvation. As a Church imbued with and ephasizing greatly the Spirit of the Resurrection and the office of Christ as Physician, hell is not as emphasized; although I believe in the East it is put in its proper context patristically.

Private Latin revelations which offer grave and grotesque pictures of hell serve to nurture the tradition of Latin Christians regarding this issue and encourage them to live holy lives out of fear of eternal punishment (Which is a classic Latin theological paradigm) WHEREAS in the East our focus is not on being afraid of God and His just punishments so as to avoid hell, but rather to live lives of holiness filled with the uncreated divine energy of the All-Holy Trinity - to as it where not sin and avoid hell out of love for him and not because we fear Him as if He were some kind of Divine Tyrant or abusive Father.

So it's not an either or thing. It's rather a matter of emphasis and interpretation on the part of our great traditions. God Bless.

In Christ the Healer,


Rob

Rob,

Is it acceptable to you that many of the Eastern Fathers believed in Universal Salvation, when in reality it is part of the Faith that there is a Hell? Doesn't this seem unbalanced?

If the Latin view makes people live out holy lives because of fear of Hell...well, that's certainly better than living unholy lives. And I think that, as many of the foremost Western saints exemplify, true Western Catholics do not live holy lives out of fear for Hell.

Sometimes it seems to me that the East totally under-emphasizes the possibility of eternal damnation of one's soul.

Logos Teen

Robert,

You might have responded to the innocuous posts of Johna S. and Altar Boy with your exposition regarding hell in the first place rather than an knee-jerk "meta ton Latins". If you think that facile, knee-jerk reactions are the hallmark of restoring the traditions of our church, then I disagree with you. Moreover, I take strong exception to your blanket characterization of the history of our church.

I was surprised by the remarks against the original two posts, because ISTM the many ideas strike many resonances with Orthodox teachings. e.g., http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Spirituality/Heaven-and-Hell.html . I am happy to learn something about others' perceptions.

Your characterization of the difference between Latin and Easterm models is faulty: what you describe as the "classic Latin theological paradigm" is in fact what Latins call "imperfect contrition"; what you describe as the Eastern focus is what Latins call "perfect contrition".

djs


PS

Christ is Risen!

No Eastern Father or I teach temporary punishment as per your Anathema nor did I say that Western theology did not take into account another persective such as what the East uses. Latin Catholicism is too complex to pidgenhole it into one paradigm. As a matter of fact I doubt if most Latin Catholics today even hear about hell in their Churches. I dealt with the classical Latin focus on a Juridical God who meets out justice like Caesar and the Eastern focus upon a God who is a Physician whose justice is healing.

God Bless.


P.S. - Only the Church can Anathematize someone so don't throw that crap at me, ok.

Sorry, Robert. I had posted this quotation from the 5th EC to respond to TotIL's query regarding universal salvation. (The anathema was directed, arguably unfairly, to Origen.) You are right of course that this specific anathema is about the idea that all will be saved by ultimately getting out, as opposed to all avoiding getting in. But isn't that what was being taught?