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No, the other Orthodox churches would not follow.

First off, not every Orthodox church has a Patriarch for its primate. The Church of Greece does not, neither does the OCA, or Church of Poland.

And the Orthodox will not care what Trent says, as it's not recognized as an Ecumenical council.

On the other hand, the very word "sobornuyu tserkvi," used in the Slavic versions of the Nicene Creed for "Catholic Church," even by Eastern Catholic Churches, means conciliarity, consensus, collegiality, and communion.

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I forgot to mention that the Ecumenical Patriarch is NOT the Orthodox Pope, though that see has been showing papal pretensions the last 40 years or so.

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Let us pray and fast for the success of the Orthodox Synod of 2016, but I hope it will not prove to be the Orthodox's Vatican II.

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What do you have against Vatican II?

Do you not accept it? Do you not recognize it as a true Ecumenical Council?

IF you don't, then you could join the great mass of "Cafeteria Catholics" who pick and choose what they want to accept and what they don't.

Perhaps you'd like to become Orthodox? Is that where you are headed?

Alex

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Dear Orthodox Catholic:

I am not criticizing Vatican II directly or indirectly. Simply, I was using it in a historical sense, namely that the history of and history after was not all that good. By using Vatican II, I meant that I do not want the Orthodox Churches to go through the same turmoil that has happened in Roman Catholicism since Vatican II; the confusion in theology, the liturgical tumult, and many priests and faithful leaving the Church. I am hopeful this will not befall them.

No, I am not a "Cafeteria Catholic" nor will I ever be, but I am a Catholic with knowledge of the history during and after Vatican II. The Council was Ecumenical, but in the hearts of many US priests who have STD's (Doctorates in Sacred Theology) and whom I have had the pleasure to know, feel that the Council was unnecessary, imprudent, poorly implemented, and a media frenzy. These opinions are not heretical because they make no theological judgement on the Council, but a prudential decision we are all free to make.

For you reading pleasure I recommend the book "The Rhine flows into the Tiber." Also read the history of Archbishop Anibale Bugnini. Pope Paul VI found out something really interesting about him. For the sake of our Orthodox brethren, we should pray that their synod in 2016 goes well. God bless us and keep us!

Your unworthy brother in Christ;
Sean Forristal


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Originally Posted by Sean Forristal
Let us pray and fast for the success of the Orthodox Synod of 2016, but I hope it will not prove to be the Orthodox's Vatican II.

Indeed! I saw what V2 did to the RCC. I am old enough to remember the pre-V2 Church. That council, and the way it was interpreted and implemented, did great damage (in my opinion).

It is one of the many reasons I ran to the warm embrace of the Holy Orthodox Church.

I pray that the council of 2016, (if it happens), does not have the same effect.

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Recluse:

Thank you for clarifying my point. I know I am an odd character in this forum, but I have met many neat and holy people. Have a blessed Sunday and say an Alleluia for me, I cannot in the West.

Your unworthy brother in Chris;
Sean Forristal


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The Fragile Promise of the Pan-Orthodox Council

The announced 2016 council of Eastern Orthodox Churches is historical, but expectations should be modest

Fr. Cyril Hovorun
Catholic World Report
March 14, 2014
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/3001/the_fragile_promise_of_the_panorthodox_council.aspx

An Assembly (Synaxis) of the Primates of the local Orthodox Churches, meeting March 6-9, 2014 in Istanbul, has agreed to convene a Pan-Orthodox council. A “Communiqué of the Primates of the Orthodox Churches” released on March 9th stated that “the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church … will be convened and presided by the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople in 2016.” This decision brings to the homestretch a long process of preparation that goes back as far as the 1920s, had an active phase in 1960s and 1970s, and then was rather quiet until very recently.

Historical context

The last Pan-Orthodox council of this scale was convened in Constantinople well over a thousand years ago, in 879-880, when Photius was reinstalled to the Patriarchal throne. That council dealt mostly with the issues of inter-Church relations and had wide representation of the Eastern Christian Churches, with over 380 bishops in attendance. Some Orthodox believe that the IV Council of Constantinople (its other name) was the eighth and last ecumenical council.

After Byzantium lost most of its territories, the councils of the same scale became impossible. Nevertheless, the Eastern Church continued exercising its synodality. Many Eastern bishops and even Patriarchs were unable or did not want to stay with their flocks on the occupied territories. They either preferred,or had no choice but to spend most of their time in safe Constantinople. The old institution of endemousa synod—that is, a gathering of all bishops who, by chance, found themselves in the capital—became a major instrument of the Church’s synodality. Not only the hierarchs under the jurisdiction of Constantinople, but also bishops and even Primates of other Patriarchates, participated in such councils, which managed ecclesial matters related not only to the Church of Constantinople but to the entire Eastern Church.

After the collapse of the Ottoman empire, the Orthodox Churches began discussing the possibility of convening a Pan-Orthodox council. In 1923, the Patriarchate of Constantinople called an inter-Orthodox assembly, which nevertheless did not consider itself a Pan-Orthodox council. There were several attempts to convene such a council in the interwar period, but they were also unsuccessful, mostly because the Russian Church was isolated and suffered from severe persecutions. The Orthodox Churches returned to this idea after World War II, and Vatican II especially inspired the Orthodox to accelerate the process of preparation for the Pan-Orthodox council. Pan-Orthodox consultations were instrumental in the preparation process, taking place at Rhodes in 1961, 1963, 1964, and in Geneva in 1968. These consultations were succeeded by the Pan-Orthodox commission and the Preconciliar consultations, which took place from the 1970s until the new millennium. Finally, the institution of the Synaxis (gathering) of the Primates of the Orthodox Church took the process of preparation for the Pan-Orthodox council to its final stage. The last Synaxis took place in Constantinople in 2008.

Many Primates who participated in the Synaxis were also active participants in the previous preparatory meetings. They clearly want to accomplish this important work, which has been a major focus of their lives, as well as the lives of their teachers and predecessors. If the council does take place, it will summarize the history of the Orthodox Church of the last century and will be the most important event in modern Orthodox history.

Risks, compromises, weaknesses

That the Pan-Orthodox council has been scheduled for 2016 is of great significance. The question remains, however, as to how effective it will be in addressing the issues that really matter for the Orthodox Church. There also remains also a real possibility that the council can and will be postponed. A postponement would take place if the tensions between local Orthodox churches become more intense, or something transpires within inter-Orthodox relations making council impossible. Simply put, the inter-Orthodox peace is still very fragile.

The participants in the Synaxis were obviously aware of these risks. In order to minimise them, they adopted a roadmap towards the council. An inter-Orthodox preparatory committee will be set up, which will work from September of this year to Easter Sunday of 2015 (April 12th). This committee will work on the documents that will be considered at the council, and on the details of its procedures. It will also quickly intervene if difficult issues arise in inter-Orthodox relations during the period before the council.

The Synaxis in Istanbul much time discussing the format of participation of the local Churches in the council. The agreement is that each Church will send 24 bishops plus the Primate of the Church, a number doubled from 12 bishops, plus the Primate, which was agreed in the midway. Because some Orthodox Churches (for instance, Cyprus, Poland, Czech Lands and Slovakia) do not have so many bishops, those Churches can send as many bishops as they have. The initial idea to allow these Churches to “borrow” bishops from other Churches was abandoned. The number of the participating bishops does not necessarily matter, because each Church will have only one vote. Only the autocephalous Churches (whose head bishop does not report to any higher-ranking bishop) will have right to vote. The autonomous churches (whose highest-ranking bishops are approved by the patriarch of an autocephalous Church) will be able to participate in the council only through their “mother” Churches. Decisions will be taken only if there is a consensus among the voting Churches. Finally, all the sessions will be presided over by the Patriarch of Constantinople—a point listed first among the decisions of the Synaxis regarding the procedures of the council.

These decisions of the Synaxis are the result of compromises achieved through very tense negotiations. The main protagonists of the negotiations were the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Moscow. Other Primates contributed mostly by suggesting solutions that would satisfy the two sides.

The Patriarch of Moscow initially suggested that all Orthodox bishops should take part in the council. Other Churches did not accept this proposal since it gave the Russian Orthodox Church, with its over 320 bishops, a distinct advantage. Instead, a limited number of bishops from each Church was accepted, which gave the Church of Constantinople with its allies an advantage over the Russian Church. To balance this decision, the Russian Church insisted on the procedure of consensus in taking decisions by the council. (Consensus means a right to veto for each Church and effectively neutralises the numerical majority of the Churches.)

This means that the compromise about the procedures significantly reduces the possibility of the council accepting any decision regarding burning issues. Only the council could have an authority to take such a decision, and yet it has been a priori paralysed in addressing the issues that divide the Orthodox Churches in our days. This is one of the weakest points of the upcoming council.

Pressing, divisive issues

The most divisive issues on the Orthodox agenda relate to the relations between the local Churches. The models of these relations are constantly evolving, reflecting global political frameworks. Understandings of the fellowship of the Orthodox Churches changes constantly, and there is no agreement on it. Some Churches consider this fellowship in terms of an utilitarian cooperation of sovereign entities, which safeguard their territorial integrity and punish any intruder, including another local Church. This philosophy reflects the logic of international law and, particularly, the idea of sovereignty of the national states. Other Churches believe the pan-Orthodox fellowship should be regarded as a confederation (or even a federation) of local Churches, with an effective and not just ritual Primus. The upcoming council could help in moving to an acceptance of a single philosophy of the Orthodox fellowship, although that is unlikely.

Two particular points of this philosophy were chosen decades ago for the agenda of the Pan-Orthodox council: the diptychs (the order) of the Churches, and the procedure of granting autocephaly (which means, literally, “self-headed”). Since it very unlikely the Churches could reach an agreement on both issues they were excluded from the agenda of the council. The issue of granting autocephaly has an immediate implication in Ukraine. The Synaxis dedicated a disappointingly laconic text to the situation in Ukraine:

We fervently pray for peaceful negotiation and prayerful reconciliation in the on-going crisis in Ukraine. We denounce the threats of violent occupation of sacred monasteries and churches, and pray for the return of our brothers presently outside of ecclesiastical communion into the Holy Church.

There is no mention of the bloodshed during the recent protests in Kiev and of the military aggression against Ukraine, where the majority of population is Orthodox. The laconism of the statement apparently reflects the deep tensions over Ukraine; the Primates of the Churches did not want to really touch on the Ukrainian issue, in order to save the council. Any meaningful discussion and message regarding the crisis in Ukraine would have probably destroyed the process of council's preparation.

However, the Synaxis did not completely avoid conflict. The Church of Antioch refused to sign the documents of the Synaxis because of its dispute with the Church of Jerusalem over a community in Qatar. The Patriarch of Antioch, John X, was not present at the Synaxis because of illness. However, he ordered his representatives to avoid signing the decisions of the Synaxis unless the problem of the parish in Qatar was solved. His ultimatum did not work, however, and so the signature of the Church of Antioch is absent.

There is no also a signature of the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia. The Russian Church facilitated the recent election of Archbishop Rastislav, the new Primate of that Church. This election is not, however, recognised by the Church of Constantinople and the majority of other Orthodox Churches. Finally, the signature of the Orthodox Church in America is also absent. This Church was granted autocephaly by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1970, but that autocephaly is not recognised by the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the majority of other Orthodox Churches.

Implications for Catholic-Orthodox relations

The ecumenical relations of the Orthodox Church are among the most important articles on the agenda of the council. It will probably encourage the Orthodox Churches regarding engagements with other Churches, including the Catholic Church. However, it is unlikely that the council will touch on the issues at the core of the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue, especially the issue of primacy.

The position of the Orthodox Churches on the issue of primacy of the Bishop of Rome depends entirely on the consensus on primacy within the Orthodox Church. Yet there is no such a consensus on this issue; instead, there are two dominating interpretations. According to one of them, primus inter pares (“the first among equals”) is just an honorary title, a rudiment of the past, which does not imply any real authority of the first Church. Inter pares is accentuated in this interpretation, which was recently expressed in the document adopted by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church, Position of the Moscow Patriarchate on the problem of primacy in the Universal Church.

According to the other perspective, primacy is something real within the Orthodox Church, and it implies real authority and responsibility of the first Church. According to Metropolitan Elpidophoros of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, who responded to the document of the Russian Orthodox Church, the first Church, in its primacy, has no equals among the other Churches.

The two interpretations of primacy seem to be irreconcilable. And it is very unlikely that the Pan-Orthodox council can accept a single Orthodox interpretation of Primacy. Without this, however, it will be difficult to proceed in the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue.

In conclusion, it seems that the current leaders of the Orthodox Churches are resolved to be etched in history as the fathers of a council, which in the Orthodox world will be regarded on the same scale with the ecumenical councils of the first millennium, (although, in the Orthodox tradition, only the following council can accept such a council as ecumenical). In contrast to the first ecumenical councils, however, this one will not touch on many of the dividing issues, which have been excluded from its agenda. This fact demonstrates the fragility of inter-Orthodox unity and cooperation. God performs miracles, however, and there is always a chance that the council will exceed its tentative agenda, and thus provide a more firm and viable framework of cooperation between the Churches.

About the Author: Fr. Cyril Hovorun is a priest of the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate), and currently a researcher at Yale University. From 2007 to 2009 he was Chairman of the Department of External Church Relations of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and initiated the first attempts at dialogue with the non-recognized Orthodox Churches in Ukraine. He has participated in official Catholic-Orthodox dialogue, and is also a member of the St Irenaeus group, which constitutes an unofficial dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic theologians. From 2009 to 2012, he was the first deputy chairman of the Educational Committee of the Russian Orthodox Church. He is the author of Will, Action, and Freedom: Christological Controversies in the Seventh Century (Brill, 2008).

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\\In conclusion, it seems that the current leaders of the Orthodox Churches are resolved to be etched in history as the fathers of a council, which in the Orthodox world will be regarded on the same scale with the ecumenical councils of the first millennium,\\

That remains to be seen.

My fear is that such a council would merely establish the local Old Calendar Churches as permanent schisms.

That's one reason I believe such a Council at the present time is inopportune.

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The council is sorely needed, but it is the various leaders who do not want it. They want the status quo and want the various ecclesiastical anomalies to persist instead of moving forward in a unified manner to preach the word of Christ.

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Fr. John,

That seems to be true. I think these jurisdictional anomalies should be deemed a sort of neo-phyletism. No heresy is entirely new!

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Some advice from the Roman side of the aisle, by Adam DeVille "Some Thoughts and (Unsought) Advice on Holding Church Councils - How the Eastern Orthodox can benefit from the lessons of Vatican II and other Councils". My favorite observation: " There are always shady characters with dodgy motives who manage to show up at councils and make mischief, and one must be on guard against them. Let us hope that—as the legend runs—there is no Arius around who will need a punch in the nose, because in this day and age an image of bishops physically bashing each other would race around the world so fast Facebook and Twitter would likely collapse under the strain, and nobody would talk about anything else."

Perhaps Metropolitans Hilarion of the MP and Elpidophoros of the EP might be tempted?

A good read and some cogent thoughts. http://www.catholicworldreport.com/...olding_church_councils.aspx#.Uys1j3_D8v7

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Originally Posted by Fr Deacon John
The council is sorely needed, but it is the various leaders who do not want it. They want the status quo and want the various ecclesiastical anomalies to persist instead of moving forward in a unified manner to preach the word of Christ.

Let's pray that those who would prefer the status quo all receive and reflect strongly on this prophetic word from one of their own:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/TrenhamUnity.php

Somewhat lengthy, but well worth the read. It's awesome.

Here's the podcast for anyone that prefers listening to reading:

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/thearena/orthodox_unity

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Originally Posted by Fr Deacon John
The council is sorely needed, but it is the various leaders who do not want it. They want the status quo and want the various ecclesiastical anomalies to persist instead of moving forward in a unified manner to preach the word of Christ.
It's been said that you seldom find a bad situation without some--or even many--people working hard to keep it that way. This is the way of the world.

In recent years, I have become painfully aware of the fact that *some* people--many of them "good" Christians--aren't the *least* bit interested in discerning the truth: they are *quite* satisfied that they possess the truth and desire only to defend and propagate what is really just "their own truth." (A variant form of this, often found in politicians, is simply defining "truth" as "whatever affirmations are useful for promoting my career.")


Originally Posted by Talon
Let's pray that those who would prefer the status quo all receive and reflect strongly on this prophetic word from one of their own:
Orthodox Reunion: Overcoming the Curse of Jurisdictionalism in America by Fr. Josiah Trenham [orthodoxytoday.org]

Somewhat lengthy, but well worth the read.
Talon,

Thanks for sharing this. I certainly wasn't aware that this had been attempted before, and that it had ended so badly. As Fr. Josiah points out:
Quote
King David himself, the inspired author of Ps. 132, was exceedingly zealous to preserve and enhance the unity of the Old Testament Church. While King Saul was reigning and persecuting David, David was exceedingly careful to preserve an attitude of reverence for Saul and not to divide the people. Despite the danger to his very life, let alone the material losses he constantly suffered, David refused to set himself up as a rival monarch and thus effect schism in Israel. He refused to establish his jurisdiction against Saul's jurisdiction. After Saul's death David was received as King only by southern portion of the Kingdom, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Far from being content shepherding just his tribe, David gave himself for seven years and six months to reconciling all the twelve tribes and reunifying the Kingdom. He considered himself weak, though King, as long as the Kingdom was divided. And as long as there is division we will always be weak. For thirty-three more years King David ruled the entire nation, and eventually passed the throne to his son, Solomon.

... Where was the spirit of King David in the aftermath of the Ligonier meeting of 1994? How grieved we were when our holy hierarchs, having been so attracted to each other when face to face by a divine magnetism that they could not but declare themselves to be an episcopal assembly--a forerunner to a common American synod--and unanimously issued two magnificent common statements: On the Church in North America and On Mission and Evangelism, and then when they encountered opposition from various quarters walked away from the quest for unity at Ligonier, some even renouncing their signatures and one his mere presence?


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Talon,

Thanks for sharing this. I certainly wasn't aware that this had been attempted before, and that it had ended so badly.

I didn't realize it when I first posted, but some encouraging news - the podcast is an updated version of the same talk in the article. The article looks to have been published in 2006, the podcast produced about 5 or 6 years later? Well, something very positive happened in 2010 that Fr. Josiah references in the podcast - the Orthodox Assembly of Bishops [assemblyofbishops.org]. Click on the link or listen to the podcast for more.

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