www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology I'm thinking on becoming Byzantine, but.....

FightingIrish,

As I understand it, the different traditions (kneeling in the West vs. standing + profound bows in the East) devolve from ancient court customs. In the West, one knelt to the king. In the East, you stood & bowed to the emperor, and the liturgical practices grew from there. Neither is superior - just different practices from different parts of the world.

Dan,

I attended a Presanctified at Sacred Heart some years back while on a business trip. My impression was much as yours - it is a rather peculiar church if one is accustomed to the "glories of Byzantium." Nonetheless, they were most hospitable, and God was praised.

Best,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear FightingIrish,

Sharon makes an excellent point. You should really get to know her, she is wonderful!

The respective Churches took much in their devotion to Christ the King from the Imperial Courts of Rome and Byzantium.

The genuflection was based on the ceremony of pledging fealty to one's King or Prince.

As you know, one knelt on one knee and took the hand of the royal personage between one's own two hands as one pronounced the oath.

But kneeling really came into being in the Western Church much later.

Again, it was always considered a penitential act of sorrow for one's sins while standing is by far, historically at least, the great act of faith in the Crucified and Resurrected Christ Who is in the Sacrament of the Altar.

God bless,

Alex

Yes, I agree: Sharon makes an excellent point. Court traditions did vary, among other historical and cultural differences.

We were at Vespers. We got there a little early, and noticed visiting Roman friars - I think they were Capuchins - in attendance. One friar seemed a little confused by his surroundings - he kept looking around for cues as to when he might sit or kneel. Of course, such cues never came. The friar soon adjusted to his surroundings and seemed quite happy.

Then, after Vespers, one of the resident monks smiled and winked as he passed him by, clapping the friar on the back in greeting and saying, "Now, when we are in Rome, we will then do as the Romans do, friend!"

Greetings, my Irish friend!

Having gotten to know you on that other BB that we frequented, I know how you feel about the liberalization in our Church. It has become a great source of unease for me as well.

You may remember some time back that I mentioned I was interested in the Eastern churches as well. I have a few friends who made the switch as well as one who is a Byzantine priest. I have great respect for the Eastern churches and have considered making a change.

However, I find that I am unable to do so for a number of reasons. Possibly part of it is the difference in traditions. I was born and raised in the Southwest and have a real devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe. Most of the other Western apparitions I am noncommittal about, but I would have a hard time giving up that one.

I hope I don't offend anyone here by saying that I would feel uncomfortable with some of the Eastern traditions. I think icons are beautiful but they are not part of my heritage and they do not move me in the same way. This is not to disparage those traditions at all, but merely to point out that as the Eastern churches resent "Latinization" of their traditions, I would resent any implications that I must give up or at least de-emphasize Western traditions.

Right now I think it best that I remain within the fold of Rome and pray that the modernist heresy will be overcome. Many on this board are antagonistic to Dr. Warren Carroll on the EWTN Q&A forum but I have found him to be an excellent source of information and a man full of hope for the future of the Western Church. For now I will hope and pray that he is right and that a renewal of the Church is right around the corner.

Irish, I know that this is a tough issue for you and I respect your concerns. Whatever choice you make I will respect and I will keep you in my prayers.

To the other members of this board, I hope that we can meet as equals in our love of Christ and not let our ecclesiastical differences cause hostility. I will try to be respectful at all times, even if I disagree with something, and you are welcome to point out any disrepect if I inadvertently say something.

Teri

To God be all glory!

Teresa,

I don't think that I ever had animosity toward Dr. Carrol. I just wanted him to refer to us using the proper terminology. He is now doing so. Praise God!

Dan L

[This message has been edited by CD Lauffer (edited 03-24-2001).]

I've not visited the forum in quite some time. It was so good to find this thread among the first I've explored.

As many of you know, I'm a Latin Catholic who is searching for the Face of God as He shows Himself to us among the Churches. Unfortunately I've felt compelled on several occassions to point out a kind of negative way of highlighting the beauty of the East and its ways by denigrating the West and its ways.

I don't have much to add to the discussion here, but I do want to thank you, especially
posters who come from Eastern Churches. The discussion here, with only minor variances, have been frank and present the differences between East and West. These differences have been discussed in a way that demonstrates the writers' respect for and valuing of both approaches and traditions.
Both are presented as ways in which God comes to men and women and ways in which man comes to God as God wills and man cooperates

If lurkers read what has been written here, especially non-believers or seekers, they will at the very least be able to tell that we who are followers of Christ together are trying to love one another.

Please do not let the written expression impede the meaning.

Joy!

Inawe,

Many who come and lurk upon this board whom I have suggested coming say the same thing. This is a breath of fresh air.

A little anecdote to tag onto your comment:

I teach Comparative Religions at a couple of local colleges. I offer them Extra Credit for certain agreed upon field trips. Today many were invited to attend our Church. I told them of the way we do the sign of the cross, the way of our devotion concerning icons, and the way we, some of us anyway, prostrate during Great Lent. I added that your devotion may be different or you may be here only to observe. Whether you offer your devotion one way or another does not matter. But offer it.

Dan Lauffer

Christ is in our midst!

Dear Fightin' Irish,

When I was a child and visited the Roman Catholic Church with my catholic relatives, I noted that when the priest walked into the room, everyone stood out of respect. This is much like the Eastern Catholic / Eastern Orthodox Tradition/Canon for standing during the Divine Liturgy on Sunday and the reason that we do not kneel until the Vespers of Pentecost. We stand in honor of the Risen Christ, our eternal King.

However when during the weekdays and especially during Lent and the Presanctified Liturgies, you might be surprised to see the Eastern Catholic/Eastern Orthodox Christian flat on their face out of reverence and awe.
For us to kneel as the Roman Catholics , or as we say "stand on our knees" is too lax, the full metania or falling on our faces in prayer fully expresses our awe at the Divine Presence of the Lord and expresses our unworthiness for His great mercy.

Also you asked about the Canons, or "The Rudder" of the Eastern Church---the Rudder cantains many of the canons that have been used by the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church over the Centuries, before one applies it to his or her life, we are always advised to speak with our priests --- Canons issued at one time with a certain penalty may need economia applied for another time period--- that is the role for your Spiritual Father or the Hierarchs, not a layman to interprete---that is their particular Charism.

Good Luck in your journey to Eastern spirituality and Eastern Christian belief.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas (edited 03-26-2001).]