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Hi Alex,

Those pesky "Vatican II theologians" need to read Dominus Iesus. wink


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Talon needs to understand the context of Dominus Iesus.

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Stuart needs to get a lot more sleep and drink some coffee in the morning, so he doesn't always feel quite so snarky.

wink


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I have not yet begun to snark.

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Oh joy...

The context of Dominus Iesus not only does not change its explicit declaration about the Catholic Church being the one true Church of Jesus Christ, it reinforces it, Stuart. Therefore, I confess to being lost on what point you could possibly be trying to make.

Last edited by Talon; 05/09/14 09:04 PM.
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Here is the primary issue that I am having in relation to this question. When speaking to other Catholics about Orthodoxy, one is given the impression that most folks adopt a model of understanding the relationship between Catholicism and Orthodoxy that is similar if not identical to the relationship between Catholicism and Protestantism. In other words, the general (or perhaps "popular" is a better word) Catholic mindset is that the Orthodox are, effectively, Protestant.

Now, I'm talking about this mindset at the popular level (up to an including certain pop-theologians, evangelists, and apologists within Catholicism). I know that at the official level the Catholic Church's teachings on Orthodoxy and on the relationship between Orthodoxy and Catholicism are quite different from the teachings on Protestantism.

Can anyone recommend some official Church documents to read on this topic?

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Knowing that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ, it would be a sin to convert out for some kind of convenience or personal recognition or something; however, if one believes the Orthodox Church is the fullness of Christ's Church, even from the Catholic perspective and theology of conscience, it may be a sin not to.

I hadn't actually thought of it that way. That's very interesting. Now what would you do with this: Say a person is convinced that both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are the fullness of Christ's Church and that what separates us are not dogmatic issues, but rather differences in theological approach as well as human sinfulness. What would one say to that?

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Originally Posted by StuartK
Just who really cares? The Church of Rome considers the Orthodox Churches to be true Churches, and the Church is one, ergo, one is not "converting" from or to anything--one is simply changing one's ecclesial affiliation.

That's pretty much the opinion that I adopt as well, Stuart. But what official Church sources could one use to explore this more deeply?

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Well, if a person converts to Orthodoxy, one presumes he or she is doing so because they are convinced it is the original Christian Church with the original, unadulterated Christian Faith etc.

Eastern Catholics and even Western, will happily congratulate someone who went from communion with Rome over to Orthodoxy (has been happening on this website for years, truth be told).
I personally praise anyone who moves to a Church or ecclesial community wherein the purpose for the move is to increase one's faith and relationship with Christ.

I understand that Latin Catholicism can be seen as too legalistic for some, on the one hand, or too liberal for others, on the other hand, and one might not find one's seed of faith growing in that environment and needs to be watered elsewhere.

What I don't appreciate are those people who leave the Catholic Church (and particularly the LATIN Catholic Church) for false doctrinal reasons (i.e., misunderstandings of its teachings).

Blessings

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Dear brother Phillip,

Is the experience of which you speak in the context of speaking with Latin Catholics?

Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes
Here is the primary issue that I am having in relation to this question. When speaking to other Catholics about Orthodoxy, one is given the impression that most folks adopt a model of understanding the relationship between Catholicism and Orthodoxy that is similar if not identical to the relationship between Catholicism and Protestantism. In other words, the general (or perhaps "popular" is a better word) Catholic mindset is that the Orthodox are, effectively, Protestant.

Now, I'm talking about this mindset at the popular level (up to an including certain pop-theologians, evangelists, and apologists within Catholicism). I know that at the official level the Catholic Church's teachings on Orthodoxy and on the relationship between Orthodoxy and Catholicism are quite different from the teachings on Protestantism.

Can anyone recommend some official Church documents to read on this topic?

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Originally Posted by mardukm
Dear brother Phillip,

Is the experience of which you speak in the context of speaking with Latin Catholics?

Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes
Here is the primary issue that I am having in relation to this question. When speaking to other Catholics about Orthodoxy, one is given the impression that most folks adopt a model of understanding the relationship between Catholicism and Orthodoxy that is similar if not identical to the relationship between Catholicism and Protestantism. In other words, the general (or perhaps "popular" is a better word) Catholic mindset is that the Orthodox are, effectively, Protestant.

Now, I'm talking about this mindset at the popular level (up to an including certain pop-theologians, evangelists, and apologists within Catholicism). I know that at the official level the Catholic Church's teachings on Orthodoxy and on the relationship between Orthodoxy and Catholicism are quite different from the teachings on Protestantism.

Can anyone recommend some official Church documents to read on this topic?

Predominantly, yes. Although I have had similar discussions with Latin-minded Eastern Catholics.

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Simply put, the Orthodox Churches are the Catholic Church of the East and the Catholic Church is the Orthodox Church of the West! Sadly, they are not in full communion with each other. Time to read Archbishop Elias Zoghby's Tous Schismatiques again!

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Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes
I hadn't actually thought of it that way. That's very interesting. Now what would you do with this: Say a person is convinced that both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are the fullness of Christ's Church and that what separates us are not dogmatic issues, but rather differences in theological approach as well as human sinfulness. What would one say to that?

Well, this particular Roman Catholic would say something along the lines of, "You took the words right out of my mouth." I often (lovingly) speak of Orthodox as Catholics who won't admit it... smile

We are extremely close. Much more so than too many Catholics and Orthodox appreciate still. But to assert that we're "exactly" the same ("dogmatically" speaking, not referring to the particular malleable cultural elements), unfortunately, overstates the case just a little bit - if in regards to no other issue, in regards to differing views on the papacy. Purgatory? Immaculate Conception of Mary? Filioque? The differences between us on these issues and nearly all others are mere differences in perception, not in reality. But when it comes to the papacy...That seems to be the one and only true "sticking point."

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Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes
Here is the primary issue that I am having in relation to this question. When speaking to other Catholics about Orthodoxy, one is given the impression that most folks adopt a model of understanding the relationship between Catholicism and Orthodoxy that is similar if not identical to the relationship between Catholicism and Protestantism. In other words, the general (or perhaps "popular" is a better word) Catholic mindset is that the Orthodox are, effectively, Protestant.

...I'd probably give this one a "yes and no." I'd say it's safe to say that, yes, many Catholics view Orthodox as "Protestants" in the simply sense of having "protested" and departed from full communion with the Church. However, I don't think this equates in too many Catholic minds to the Orthodox being the sort of full equivalent of your local Calvary Fellowship or Assemblies of God. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of Catholics recognize and appreciate that there are literal degrees of separation in any circumstance in life, and the degree to which the Orthodox are separated from Rome is not nearly the same degree to which the other Christian communities tend to be.

Does that make sense?

Quote
Now, I'm talking about this mindset at the popular level (up to an including certain pop-theologians, evangelists, and apologists within Catholicism). I know that at the official level the Catholic Church's teachings on Orthodoxy and on the relationship between Orthodoxy and Catholicism are quite different from the teachings on Protestantism.

Can anyone recommend some official Church documents to read on this topic?

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...faith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

It's been several years since I last read the document, so I don't recall if it's apt to answer your question sufficiently or not. If not, let me know and I'll go digging for something else...

Peace.

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Dear Talon,

Many Latin Catholics I've discussed this with over the years have shown very little interest in, and knowledge about, the history of the Eastern Churches.

The idea of Rome's Primacy was based on whether Rome had the faith of Peter.

With respect to the Filioque for starters, the Eastern Churches saw Rome as having excommunicated itself from full communion as a result.

In fact, many traditionalist Catholics I know today regard Vatican II and its aftermath as being "non-Catholic."

The case of Honorius demonstrated in its day that a pope could be condemned for heresy and/or other issues.

In other words, Rome's orthodoxy was and still is something that the entire Church needs to be convinced of before its Primacy could be upheld.

Alex

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