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AntonI Offline OP
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So, according to Sandro Magister, Cardinal Burke is being demoted:

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350870?eng=y

Father Z's comments:

http://wdtprs.com/blog/

Obviously this is a Latin church matter but I do wonder what this bodes for not only the Latin Church but also for relationships with Orthodoxy. I am not going to jump on the Rorate Caeli bandwagon and start calling him a modernist hell bent on the destruction of the Church but it's interesting to see what the Pope is planning.

The forthcoming Synod on Marriage will be interesting, especially with a great majority of the cardinals opposing Cardinal Kasper's viewpoint and attacking the Orthodox Church's policy on economia.

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Dear Brother Anton,

This is a very good illustration of the real divisions within the Latin Church today.

Some within the RC Church like to point out to the "divisions" within Orthodoxy in the sense that there is no "Orthodox pope" as there is in RCism.

But one may have a pope and still be quite divided. One might venture to say that the "Liberal-Traditional" divide is much more pernicious and potentially damaging than anything contained within Rome's "bogeyman" of Orthodox jurisdictionalism.

Alex

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What underlies this issue has the potential to tear apart the Roman communion in a way the Vatican 2 reforms never - even with the excesses of modernism - never , ever were able to accomplish.

My fellow Orthodox and I can only sit and watch - as the "traditionalists" with whom many Orthodox feel kinship (wrongly in my view) expose their true feelings and beliefs about us. Unlike Cardinal Kasper, most never met any real Orthodox Christians. (Funny, I've made the same observation about many Orthodox who fiercely critique Eastern Catholics.) Eastern theology and ekonomia will be shredded with venom by the likes of Cardinals Pell and Burke in the coming weeks. Be prepared.

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It already is. Father Z is advertising a book that has been written by five cardinals on that very point with contributions from one of the Oriental Catholic Archbishops.

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If Pell and Burke's views carry the day, they will do so at a great cost. They will alienate their most effective friends in the Orthodox world beginning with many of the Metropolitans of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and theologians on the various international dialouge groups.

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Eastern theology and ekonomia will be shredded with venom by the likes of Cardinals Pell and Burke in the coming weeks. Be prepared.

This kind of thing is just as destructive! Judge their actions, not a speculation about what they'll do.

My fellow Orthodox and I can only sit and watch - as the "traditionalists" with whom many Orthodox feel kinship (wrongly in my view) expose their true feelings and beliefs about us. Unlike Cardinal Kasper, most never met any real Orthodox Christians.

Cardinal Kasper's view is just incoherent. It's not the Orthodox view.




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All this makes me even more happy to be Byzantine and not Latin Catholic. I think our Byzantine church has entirely too much affection for Rome and could distance itself a bit more from it. Given some of our Latinized bishops, it won't happen. It's a pleasant thought, however.

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Originally Posted by byzanTN
All this makes me even more happy to be Byzantine and not Latin Catholic. I think our Byzantine church has entirely too much affection for Rome and could distance itself a bit more from it. Given some of our Latinized bishops, it won't happen. It's a pleasant thought, however.

But many, many of your clergy are Orthodox in spirit so do not despair.

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On the one hand, I find Cardinal Burke's demotion to be troublesome, as he is a stewart of the Latin Tradition and faithful in it's practices.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with each sui iuris Church behaving as it had Traditionally - The Byzantine prelates should feel free to exercise economia without Roman intervention; Orientals should feel free to apply their proper Traditions on marriage without feeling obligated to mimic Latins or Byzantines..

Unfortunately, this leads more chaos than modern Catholicism is used to.

I agree with C. Burke that Rome has not exercised toleration as have the Byzantines, and I uphold his view as the true Latin view. Let Rome continue to behave as it has organically developed, without citing modern EO or OO practices. Then, also allow ECs to do the same, without citing Latin practices.

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Originally Posted by byzanTN
All this makes me even more happy to be Byzantine and not Latin Catholic. I think our Byzantine church has entirely too much affection for Rome and could distance itself a bit more from it. Given some of our Latinized bishops, it won't happen. It's a pleasant thought, however.

I wish I could share your enthusiasm, but quite frankly, after what I have seen and gone through with the diaconate program and the politics I have seen in the Ruthenian Church in the last many years, starting with the "Teal Terror," I fear for the future of the Ruthenians in this country.

Fr. Thomas Loya told me that if the Ruthenians in this country don't learn to evangelize, they will cease to exist in this country within 50 years. Knowing that our church has dropped from a membership of around 250,000 in the 1950's to less than 60,000 at the present time, I have to sadly nod my head in agreement. The politics, the lack of leadership, the internal fighting, and the destruction of our beautiful Liturgy all lead me to have a certain amount of despair for the future.

I can't tell you how many men and families I saw jump ship when the Teal Terror came out. Our local Orthodox mission parish was the beneficiary of this, and who could blame those who left? At least one of which I know was a refugee from the Latin Novus Ordo (if you ever wanted to get a real earful, bring it up to him!) and the destruction that wrought, along with the feminized language and the nerve to destroy the wording of the Creed. There is no liturgical unity in the clerical praxis from parish to parish and no one seems to much care.

It causes me profound sadness when I think of all that has happened since that joyful day that I discovered the ancient faith in the Ruthenian Church. My old priest +Fr. Mike (eternal memory) would be spinning in his grave right now if he could see what is going on at his old parish.

I weep.

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I would suggest this is nonsense. He has not been demoted. He has been given a different Curial assignment. Perhaps not the one of his or others choosing but that is the Pope's prerogative. The man remains an Archbishop and a Cardinal.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Since I work as a music director for the Latins, I can never get to the Ruthenian parish on Sunday. When I am able to go, it is to the Ukrainian parish. Correct me if I am wrong, since my perspective may be off, but the Ukrainians seem to be growing.

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Originally Posted by byzanTN
Since I work as a music director for the Latins, I can never get to the Ruthenian parish on Sunday. When I am able to go, it is to the Ukrainian parish. Correct me if I am wrong, since my perspective may be off, but the Ukrainians seem to be growing.

So apparently are the Melkites. As one poster I read said of this "It's because the Melkites could care less what the Latins think about them." Something that the Ruthenians should have learned a long time ago, but sadly did not.

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Originally Posted by DMD
Eastern theology and ekonomia will be shredded with venom by the likes of Cardinals Pell and Burke in the coming weeks. Be prepared.

Well, looks like they have already been shredded by an Orthodox monk who is becoming Catholic:

Quote
I’m a monk of the Orthodox Church converting to Catholicism. I have decided to do this on many grounds, pretty much all of them dogmatic. But though my realization of the Truth of Catholic dogmatic theology was a gradually increasing thing, there were two things from the get-go, that made me realize Catholicism’s doctrinal witness had to be taken seriously.

Having read the Fathers on how to discern a vocation either to married or religious life, it was clear that the Fathers had a very definite understanding of marriage and sexuality; this specific understanding led them to recommend the celibate life to all who could embrace it, and to insist that if a Christian did want to keep one foot in the world, his or her sexuality was to be exclusively reserved for marriage, marriage itself being directed to a particular end: the raising of godly offspring in a committed unit that formed the basis of society and mirrored the indissoluble bond between Christ and the Church. In the whole context of their views on marriage and sex, two things were inescapable: first, contraception is incomprehensible for the Christian marriage, since they tended to view marriage itself as a good, albeit as still a sub-optimal concession to worldly desires that was only justifiable on the grounds of producing children and raising them in the Faith; second, marriage is necessarily permanent so long as both spouses live, both because of its duties and obligations under natural law, and also because of its sacramental character. Orthodox may attempt to pride themselves on greater fidelity to the Apostolic Tradition in some external custom or other (ancient calendars, fasts, seasons of kneeling vs. not, etc.), but it was absolutely clear to me that she has come adrift from basic Christian doctrine on marriage and sexuality. This is a matter of doctrine, not mere practice, and this should give many Orthodox pause, as it gave me: I reckoned to myself, “If Catholicism is false and Orthodoxy is true, why is it that Catholicism still teaches the truth about marriage and contraception, while we have abandoned it?” The doctrinal vagaries surrounding the Filioque and Papal Infallibility can be debated until one is blue in the face; the crystal-clear Patristic and Apostolic (and Scriptural) teaching that marriage is forever and excludes contraception, cannot (at least, not by honest, above-board people). I think it would be tragic, to see Catholicism even flirt with this “oikonomia” idea, when her doctrinal fidelity was, for me, a very clear witness to her real claim to be the Church.

And as one who was in the Orthodox Church, allow me to tell you that this “oikonomia” concept has been utterly abused within Orthodoxy to justify any and every breach of canonical discipline. This is nothing that Catholicism should want to introduce. The proper use of “oikonomia” is “good management of an household” (which is what the word means). That means that often stricture is just as much a part of “oikonomia” as indulgence. The proper way to use economy is found in the Latin term “dispensatio,” which is how the Greek term was always translated. The Latin term means “to weigh out,” “to measure out,” “to pay out.” The idea, is that a dispensation tries to attain the same good as the law was intended to attain, by weighing all the variables in particular circumstances. One does not simply “do away with” the law; one tries to achieve the Law’s intent by another means. Sometimes this may result in relaxing the discipline of the law, when circumstances indicate that enforcing the full brunt of the law would actually do harm to a particular person in particular circumstances. But obviously, this power of attaining the law’s good intent through selecting a different approach after the prudent weighing of all factors, does not extend to violating truth or corrupting morality, since this is never the law’s intent. It would be the opposite of the law’s good intent. Catholics! Take it from an ex-Orthodox monk: flee this spurious “economy” that flouts the authentic understanding of that term! So distorted has Orthodox theology become, that they regard non-Orthodox sacraments as always invalid, but still believe they may be considered valid “by oikonomia.” How does a principle that allows for making prudent judgments in the administration of canon law, have anything to do with making sacraments valid or invalid retroactively? What good is such a befuddled concept of oikonomia? I knew an Orthodox priest, married, who worked as a psychiatrist; he had an affair with one of his patients, which even secular folk regard as crime that merits losing one’s right to practice medicine, yet his bishop allowed him to divorce his wife, “re-marry” with the patient, and *return to priestly service,* all in the name of “oikonomia.” Mercy my foot! Where was mercy for the man’s wife? For their kids? For the community that would rather not have a lying, fornicating adulterer for their parish priest? For the other women the man may victimize, now that he knows there are no consequences for his action? This is where such an idea of “oikonomia” naturally tends, and to this understanding of “okonomia,” I say: anathema sit! It should be a great shame to the Orthodox that they tolerate this mealy-mouthed treason against the faith; Catholics should pride themselves on having none of it. It is one of the reasons I took Catholicism seriously, and eventually came to confess her as holding the true faith.

Source: The hard truth about marriage, mercy and Eastern "oikonomia". [wdtprs.com]

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Sorry grieco, but Latinist propaganda from the self assured Father Z's blog won't gather any traction with us, and very little from your Eastern Catholic co-religionists.

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